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Beware the Buddy System

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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C

cdavis

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Jan 21, 2003
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7BDiver, We couldn't believe it either and never found a clear explanation. Ted doesn't get much for urge to breathe, but regularly does 30+m , 2:30 dives. This one was about 25m, maybe 1:45, at most. There were some complicating factors, but nothing we could pin it on.
 
J Campbell

J Campbell

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Sep 17, 2001
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I truly don't understand and have a hard time believing the concept of someone blacking out during a "well within their limits" dive. Are we talking about people that simply don't have an urge to breath nor a strong signal/urge to breath, do they have heart complications or low blood pressure due to stress that makes them faint? How do we distinguish between someone fainting or truly out of oxygen having gone beyond their limits? Is there a medical assessment one can evaluate themselves or a buddy for fitness before a dive?
Hmmm, blacking out while “within your limits”. This is a form of denial. If you blackout then by definition you were NOT within you limits. Your limits are variable. You need to access conditions and each dive. Just because you can normally do a 3 minute dive does not mean that 3 minutes will always be safe for you.

If you were there when a blackout happened and observed the conditions and what was going on before the blackout I guarantee you would find that they broke one of these rules.

1. Not taking adequate rest between dives.

2. Ignoring that the water is cold, and other conditions, and that they need to shorten their dives accordingly.

3. Pushing themselves too hard, staying down too long - thinking "I can stay down a little longer, just to spear this fish".

4. Pushing themselves too hard by diving deeper than is safe for them.
 
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7BDiver

7BDiver

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Sep 5, 2019
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I understand the basic principles of running out of air but there appears to be this mantra that the buddy system is essential due to the notion diving and breath holding is just playin Russian roulette. I think there is a distinct difference between someone blacking out due to lack of oxygen or fainting due to reduction in blood pressure/flow. Am I wrong in thinking there are two completely different things going on with one being much less predictable? Why else would people be concerned about swimming 25m in a pool or the idea of dynamics being banned in pools be anything but preposterous?
 
Sorandril

Sorandril

Member
Jun 13, 2020
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I understand the basic principles of running out of air but there appears to be this mantra that the buddy system is essential due to the notion diving and breath holding is just playin Russian roulette. I think there is a distinct difference between someone blacking out due to lack of oxygen or fainting due to reduction in blood pressure/flow. Am I wrong in thinking there are two completely different things going on with one being much less predictable? Why else would people be concerned about swimming 25m in a pool or the idea of dynamics being banned in pools be anything but preposterous?
It is preposterous. We’re in the middle of a right wing moral panic. Ordinary swimming activities, not freediving, carry a .00001% risk of drowning based on the deaths vs. number of recorded visits to public pools.

people used to do these things ...25/50m...on the team and people weren’t dying left and right by any accounts.

oh yes and I’m sure lifeguards used to do their job years ago and not fart around on FB ... and that our fitness in America may have degenerated to the point where these rules are needed.
 
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Sorandril

Sorandril

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Jun 13, 2020
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Also, Sweden has less drowning deaths and more water and the final exam in high school involves a 50m dive!

Those stats really take the piss out of the right wings flat earth argument there at the Y. I notice a lot of Christians have a phobia about breath holding for some reason. Probably schizophrenia and a corresponding lack of HIF function.
 
C

cdavis

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2003
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"If you were there when a blackout happened and observed the conditions and what was going on before the blackout I guarantee you would find that they broke one of these rules.

1. Not taking adequate rest between dives.

2. Ignoring that the water is cold, and other conditions, and that they need to shorten their dives accordingly.

3. Pushing themselves too hard, staying down too long - thinking "I can stay down a little longer, just to spear this fish".

4. Pushing themselves too hard by diving deeper than is safe for them."


J Cambell, You are undoubtedly right that Ted did something wrong, but not any of these 4. Undoubtedly, he went beyond his limits, We just had no idea how. We hashed it over and over, and brought in DB in a thread to find other opinions. The only things we could come up with was maybe some dehydration might have contributed and/or, since he was filming and swimming up and laterally at the time, maybe 02 use exceeded what it needed to be. We have his video and you can tell where he BOed, so we know he did not "lose" any time or memory of being beyond his limits. The point and problem is that "apparently" he was well within his limits, both to him and to me. This is the central problem with BO. No matter how aware you are of your limits and how they change with conditions, you still run some risk of BO if you are freediving.

The only way I know to avoid the BO issue entirely is to stay in the pool and limit your breath holds to a minute or less, with some rest in between. That applies pretty well to people with normal physiology, but not necessarily to odd physiologies, which brings back the uncertainty.

Link to the original thread:

 
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C

cdavis

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Jan 21, 2003
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7BDiver.

Basic physiology of BO is the same in both cases. Adding depth and pressure changes to the mix makes it much easier to BO. Neither is very predictable, although we know many of the things that contribute.
 
Sorandril

Sorandril

Member
Jun 13, 2020
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I’m of the opinion that people with odd physiologies may not be cleared to do this.

I want to make a genetic HIF function test and make it mandatory to join the swim team or dive etc.

although I’m not sure that will appease these religious nutters.
 
Sorandril

Sorandril

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Jun 13, 2020
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I will pin your friends blackout on one thing and one thing only: no sensation. That guy, I’m sad to say, becomes a problem in the water and should be wearing that vest even with buddies.

I on the other hand seen to feel everything due to various genetic factors...
 
C

cdavis

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2003
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Lack of a strong urge to breathe certainly contributed to his (several) B0s, IMHO. The fact remains that he was "apparently" no where near his limits on the dive being discussed. He is an outstanding and attentive dive buddy, but I watch him like a hawk when diving together.

Interesting aside, since the arrival of his kids, he is a lot less "go for broke" and has had no further B0 problems that I know of.

Sensitivity to "urge to breathe" is something I've wondered about but have not seen seriously discussed or researched. All the divers i personally know who have B0ed have late or relatively minimal urge to breathe. Me, on the other hand, have lousy C02 tolerance and have never B0ed (that I know of) in spite of many years of doing some extremely stupid stuff. Of course, thats anecdotal. I love to see some research.
 
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Sorandril

Sorandril

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According to that thread he seemed to not even know when he was thirsty.
My lack of a competitive go for broke approach to underwater swimming may explain things as well...
 
Sorandril

Sorandril

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Jun 13, 2020
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The idea that all swimming underwater is Russian roulette has been popular lately, even a movement, but based on the statistics is ludicrous. People used to be on the swim team and no one I ever talked to knew of a death or close call even doing 50yds.

Yet we now have this movement based in pseudoscience to ban it for maximum safety because one lady in GA didn’t watch her son and her son was alone. Double idiocy.

the problem is lack of education. I got more proper education from my father in aquatics than the basic courses taught to children.
 
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