Blacked out today.

[DerekB]

So I had a black out today. We were doing tandem dives so I could do some photography of my buddy diving the wrecks. Happened on my last dive. And it gave me a few questions.

1. does a person have a set amount of dives they can perform that day ( or week)? IE. maybe I can do 18 hard dives a day before I BO and my dive buddy being a better diver can do 30?

2) my meal the day before was chicken curry and a 24 oz Turkey burger in a bowl of spinach leafs ( no bun just the bowl). The day of the dive I ate nothing and we where in the water for almost 8 hours.

Could the lack of electrolites or sugars in the blood play a role?

Overall I can remember the black out up till the last 2-3 seconds. I started to know I was in trouble and my buddy understood me so was well below me. I knew it was going to be a very rough ascent around 50' and by 40' I was having trouble.
Around 40 ft I my feet were getting heavy and my vision would snap black and then back into focus on the wreck. At this point my buddy said he saw me start to kick faster, I honestly thought I new better than that.
After the second flash I feel a samba start and my arms and back start to spasm. The Flashes started to get longer every time, I had 5 flashes. By this time i'm probably about 20-15ft from the surface. My buddy grabs my arm. I can remember him grabbing my elbow and then I hit my final flash. Im aware of my face breaking the surface and that paul is holding me immediately. I thank him for the assist. I "woke" up so fast That pulling of my mask wasn't necessary
* we did have a 3 diver acting as saftey, due too a miss communication he thought we where done for the day and was sitting on the boat*

 

[DivingDane]

hmmm, glad to hear you are ok, and this definetly shows how important it is to have good effective safety divers in the water which know what is happing.

for your questions.

1. no there is no set number of safe dives a person can do before black out, there are so many variable that can change the outcome;
- Mental state
- amount of sleep you have been getting
- current
- the amount of physical exertion you have been doing
- dehaydration play a big part in black outs i find
- and the list goes on

people can have great dives all day to a deep depth then the next day dive once and black out a a shallower depth due to exhaustion of dehydration, insufficient breathup etc.

2. diet the day before and the lack of eating during the extended dive can effect what hjas happened, but particularly the fact that you were diving deep for a long period of time and had not eaten would definetly have some effect.

hope that helps a bit.

DD

 

[Chrillepille]

Nice to hear your story.

I think the long hours in water combined with the lack of food may be big contributors to what happened.

Peter Lindholm did a study on fasting and breath-holds and his conclusions are something like this: to fast (but not be low on blood sugar) before one long breath-hold but definitely not before a whole day of diving. You will then gradually start to use more fat for energy production and that uses more oxygen than carbohydrate oxidation (or something lika that).

Heres a link to his abstract: Effects of fasting and carbohydrate consumption on... [Eur J Appl Physiol. 2007] - PubMed result

Cheers!
Christian

 

[azapa]

Thanks for sharing your story. You had a good team and your buddy made a great save. Look around here and you will find some great advice on rescue techniques. Some quick tips:

- to get somebody in trouble up from depth, rather than grab their arm, use one hand behind the neck and one in front, palm under chin and two fingers of same hand holding divers mask to face. Kinda pull them up by their heads! That will stop the head flopping back and maybe water entry.

- once on top, keep calm, keep his airways above the water, remove his mask and blow fresh air across his eye area, talk to him calmly, remind him to breathe, tap his cheeks gently. 95% of BO victims will recover at this point within 15 seconds.

There are several cases that can happen to the remaining 5% that does not come straight back, but you should really learn these first hand in a course. Martin Stepanek does courses in Hawaii quite often.

Take care.


(PD. the food thing, i have no idea, it seems to be different for everyone, but your eating and time between looks fine to me. Sleep, mental state, general health or medications and maybe a wonky breathe up was probably to blame)

 

[cdavis]

Good teaching story and glad you are ok.

Yours is a fabulous example of why multiple backups are critical in this sport. Nearly every time I've been involved in some real screw up, it was because a backup wasn't available and/or multiple things went wrong. Your B0 was probably a combination of things, food, tiredness, dehydration, hard to say. You had a safety diver out of place. No problem, cause there were two, but if he had not been there, you could be dead.

Thanks for sharing.

Connor

 

[Blesum]

Hi, I'm WolfTalker's partner. We didn't talk much about it afterwards, but he asked me to post my version here so...

Looking at my F10, it was dive #37 for me, depth was 82 feet for 1:33 minutes. Surface time was a staggeringly long 30:50 as we waited for a submarine to show up, conduct a turn and perform another pass below us for the photographs we were after.

I went down first because my descents and ascents are slower than WolfTalker's. This is amazing considering he's dragging around a big SLR camera housing. I reached the bottom in front of the submarine as it approached, scanned and saw WolfTalker dropping onto me from above. We got into our positions and he started taking pictures. He tapped me and gave me a thumbs up (previously agreed to mean to start moving off of the bottom) but I forgot and took it to mean for me to look at the surface instead. So about 5 seconds was wasted on that. WolfTalker stopped kicking for the surface to wait for me. When I looked at him again, he did the same signal and I remembered it meant to move up, so I got off the bottom and started kicking. Derek was about 15 feet above me at that point. I don't recall if he took any more pictures at that point.

We continued our ascends and I was just looking around, looking at the fish, looking at WolfTalker pulling ahead above of me as usual. I saw that our 3rd diver (safety diver) was not in the water and figured out he was probably in the boat so I watched WolfTalker a bit more closely. When he was at 30' I noted his kicks were getting stronger and I started to focus on him from about 55'. It was not a big change, but he's my regular partner and I could note the difference.

When WolfTalker got to about 20' his kicks got shorter and quicker which never happens with him. He's always been a very powerful kicker. I was at about 45' and I usually stop kicking around then (I don't dive with weights) and cruise. I stopped kicking for a few seconds as I cruised up, watching WolfTalker closely.

When he got to 10', I could see him convulsing so I tucked my chin in, and resumed kicking. Due to no weights, I started rocketing up very quickly and made the call to surface first, grab a breath before assisting even though I was 98 percent certain I would be fine. I felt it would be safer and wiser to surface first rather than end up with two possible victims in the water.

As I came up, I twisted so that I would be able to see him again right before I broke surface about 5 feet away. He was face down in the water, mouth open, floating and convulsing. No air was escaping his mouth that I could see. I broke surface and headed straight for WolfTalker who was no longer moving. I rolled him onto his back with an arm around his waist and lifted him out of the water. It was not a textbook grab roll (which is embarrassing considering we've taught a couple of classes on water safety here in Oahu) but it was quick and worked out well. My main concern was the open mouth underwater and I wanted that out of the water pronto before I started on the mask, his weights, patting, and blowing in case he took an early terminal gasp. With his back and head supported by my body and out of the water, I pulled the mask and started tapping on his cheek.

Wolftalker started to convulse again which I thought was unusual, but I could see that he took in a breath at least. He still did not have control of his limbs so I resumed tapping his cheek for a few more seconds just to help him "come to". I could then see he was breathing regularly again and making slight movements so I held him up for another 5 seconds until he signed "thanks" (I'm deaf). I slowly released him and checked that he was able to swim on his own, etc.

The whole surface incident took less than 10 seconds.

The 3rd person on the boat had seen the whole incident and was getting ready to jump back into the water but I flashed him the OK signal after I saw that everything was back under control.

That's how I saw/remember yesterday afternoon's incident.

-Paul

 

[Fondueset]

First - thanks for posting this story - and thanks for doing it from two points of view and in such detail
Fasting lowers your blood pressure - increasing likelyhood of blackout. This alone could account for it - in combination with normal freedive exertion.

this is the second story I've seen here where the diver had eaten a high protein/low carbo meal - though the other one was for breakfast the same day.

 

[Spear0Joe]

what are the best foods to eat the night prior to a dive or in the morning? something quite high in fibre and sugar? any thoughts?

joe

 

[cdavis]

Besides diet, that is at least the third B0 story I've seen which included a long surface interval just before "the dive" This dive wasn't very long either, the time probably well within this divers capacity. Its also the second I know of that involved hauling around camera, which is a whole lot more work. I've noticed that my dive reflex seems to weaken after a surface interval of 10 minutes or more. Anybody else see a connection?

Connor

 

[Fondueset]

I did a search and found this thread
http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-training-techniques/62973-apnea-diet.html
I'm sure there is much more.

Upshot is you want slow-burn carbos going in. Hi-protein not so good before a dive - High fat bad due to O2 consumption.

I like Oatmeal with dates, raw coconut oil and sometimes a little tahini for winter dives - it is a bit of a compromise but the coconut oil helps with warmth and slows down the oatmeal a little - as does the Tahini. I like to give it 90 minutes or so to start burning before I get in.

- 8 hours dives in the 20-30 meter range - taking pics while fasting makes this the least mysterious blackout story I've seen. Remember - some people black out from low blood sugar alone - or just standing up too fast when fasting.

(absolutely no-disrespect meant to the obviously very experienced diver - posts like this are pure gold for all of us )

Connor. I'm not diving right at my limits but if the surface interval is relaxed I seem to have really nice dives after a long one. Most of my dives during class in the Bahamas had 20 minute or so surface intervals - though before and after class I did multiple dives to 30-40 meters with somewhat shorter intervals. i think if you were wrangling around - maybe fighting current and positioning it would be bad but for me long intervals only seemed to make it nicer (plus I'd start to feel something faintly resembling coolness!). I did like the no warmup dives best. (Caveat! Obviously here when the water is below 40f a relaxed 30 minute surface interval will leave you shivering so violently you'll be luck to be able to swim! - In winter we swim a lot and do short dives)

 

[Blesum]

I'm a fitness nut and am always reading the latest research on nutrition in order to improve my performance in the things I do (free diving, surfing, swimming, running, etc).

I used to be a fan of the Paleolithic diet (which is what Derek is on), I've also gone through a few cycles of a CKD diet, etc but have discovered that for the activities I partake in which typically only involves a few hours of activity each day at the most, it doesn't work well for me. By the time my body switches to a full-on fat burning mode (ketones released) for energy my activity is over with already. This causes me to have low energy levels most of the time and to "flatten out" physically. I also am not able to carry as much water and volume in my blood and muscles which leads to quicker dehydration and running out of steam sooner.

I've developed my own diet and supplementation plan that seems to work the best for me - what works for me probably won't work as well for the others though so take what I do with a grain of salt. It's only through error and trail that one can find out the most ideal diet. Everybody is different.

Basically, I don't shun carbs anymore, but take more of them in the morning with my first few meals rather than in the evening. I also take in carbs before and after physical activity when they are most likely to be converted to glucose and properly stored as such, or used for energy/recovery right there and then, rather than converted and stored as fat. I also only take in "wholesome" carbs - no refined stuff except for waxy mazine right after intense exercise (weight lifting, a big-wave surfing session, etc). Oh yeah, and the celebratory ice cream yesterday afternoon after our dive for all of us still being alive.

I really do think that WolfTalker would improve his oxygen carrying capabilities and recovery abilities if he reintroduced some carbs (other than the incidental carbs he gets from nuts, vegetables, etc). My reasoning is that carbs fill out the body's tissues (saturating the body with more fluids, blood and oxygen), improves N02 expression and just plain provides the body with readily available energy. The downside is that it can negatively impact insulin sensitivity and the body's ability/willingness to utilize fat as a fuel source. However, because I mostly stick with quality carbs (brown rice instead of white, whole wheats, etc), I feel that the trade-off is acceptable. Perhaps only carb-load for one or two days before a long diving day? I wouldn't worry about fiber - as long as you're eating healthy and able to take a good bowel movement right before going diving, you're good to go.

Supplementations include creatine, beta alanie and citrulline malate. These reduce lactic acid burn/build-up, increase blood/muscle volume and N02 expression. I also take whey and casein protein shakes to prevent catabolism (muscle being burned for fuel) but this is not critical for free-diving. In fact, theoretically, the less muscles you have, the less oxygen you would require. The protein is more so for my other activities which require strength, speed, power and quicker recoveries.

Disclaimer:
I am not a certified nutritonist nor am I a doctor. Almost all of my information is based on reading magazines, nutriton/fitness/bodybuilding forums, medical articles (I usually just stick to the abstracts) and experimenting on myself. Do your own research and see what works for you - everybody is different.

-Paul

 

[Blesum]

On the morning of a dive, I typically only eat a small bowl of old fashioned oatmeal and will have a shake consisting of my supplements with the oatmeal. I don't take in any protein powers, or only trace amounts. Instead I take L-Leucine ammino acid with it to stave off catabolism. It is more rapidly digested/absorbed than whey and less "complete".

-Paul

 

[DerekB]

lots of great information from everyone

Dehydration I could see, on previouse dives I've lost 2 1/2 lbs on my dives. Most I'm assuming was water wieght.

It was my knowlege that after ten min you start loosing your dive reflex and red blood cells start to be reabsorbed to the spleen. Knowing this I did a few dives while the other too were relaxing on the boat. I'm not sure what my final surface time was before the dive, I'll have to look when I get home from work. But I doubt it was more than 15 min

I also found it very interesting on what I remember and how it differs from what Blesums accounts of the dive are. It seems I was out much longer then I thought.

I've walked( thankfully) away with alot of information and I hope that some other divers are able to learn from mistakes
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Mullins]

I really don't think that losing your dive response on a long surface interval will make you any more susceptible to BO. If anything it'd be the opposite - remember most freedivers avoid doing warmups because while they make you feel better, they reduce performance.

Sounds like a fairly typical fatigue + dehydration + a bit of unplanned stop/start on the bottom scenario.

 

[apneaboy]

One point not made yet is that I don't beleive you did have sufficient safety systems for that dive. You need a fresh safety diver not someone in almost the same situation, by definition a long dive is a long dive for you both. If he had a BO at 30' and sank one or both of you could have been in a bad way afterwards. You would have had to make a life changing decision whether to lift him right there and then or go back down for him. Either way biiiig problems maybe.

Not a criticism, just food for thought, while your still here.

 

[Blesum]

We both agree and talked about that on Sunday. It wasn't the best situation. At the same time, it wasn't the worst...

-Paul

 

[apneaboy]

We both agree and talked about that on Sunday. It wasn't the best situation. At the same time, it wasn't the worst...

-Paul

Yeah you obviously look after each other and take safety seriously to one) have spotted the problem and dealt with it and two) posted on here. So fair play to you both. It just needs a rethink to make it closer to the best situation.

Just give lazy boy on the boat a slap before you get in next time and take turns diving.

Enjoy

 

[blueface]

Thanks for sharing. The dive wasn't very deep and the time was reasonable. It appears to be easily within your capability. That's what makes it more frightening.

 

[blueface]

Paul, nice job on the rescue! I was just wondering why you would cut out the carbs to cause ketosis? That would make the blood more acidic and cause you to dehydrate. I can't see how there would be any advantage. Fat burn for energy is kind of a body building logic.

If there is an advantage, can you explain?

 

[Blesum]

No advantages as it pertains to diving as far as I am aware of.

In other activities, a lower-carb diet is ideal for maintaining a more natural energy metabolic process if you subscribe to the paleolithic diet belief. Also improves insulin response and keeps body fat under control. A nice bonus is that despite using a 5/4/3 full hooded wetsuit I typically don't use any weights. Less things to get snagged while crawling through cracks/holes. One less thing to deal with. Less weight to carry on trips. Less damage to boat decks, etc.

-Paul