Now some of you will know this trick already, you stand up quickly while inhaling deeply then start packing. For me this is guaranteed to give me a whopper blackout with LMC and even some noises as I exhale. I demonstrated this the other day to a few curious friends, much to their horrow when I collapsed. It's a mighty strange feeling, when I woke up I have no idea where I was, and it took me a good few seconds to work out why I was on the floor. I also get really vivid "dreams" while I'm out, but I couldn't tell you what they were about. The other great thing is I can remember thinking that it wasn't going to work this time, that I'd be fine, and the next thing I remember is coming to and feeling some twitching in my limbs (apparently they were flailing a bit). These blackouts leave me feeling pretty wired, like I've overdosed on coffee. The discussion about blackouts came about after I did a 4:30 dry static to win a chocolate bar from someone who said it wasn't possible. I really need some deeper water to dive in. I'm stuck in a place where the deepest water accessable from the shore is only 20m, and I don't have a boat.
-
Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
- Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
- Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
- Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
- Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
- All this and much more...
You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
Blackout trick
- Thread starterLachlanWA
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
That sounds a bit dangerous. You might have low blood pressure. I train to avoid blackouts and sambas. I don't know how scientific it is, but conditioning your body to blackout doesn't seem very wise to me.
I won 113 bottles of beer on a similar bet.
I won 113 bottles of beer on a similar bet.
Chocolate and beer... is that what freediving is coming to these days? haha
I don't get such incentives, my friends actually have a go at me and tell me i'm going to give myself brain damage holding my breath.
Is it in anyway useful to know what blacking out feels like, so tha maybe you can recognise the lead up symptons in the open water?
I don't get such incentives, my friends actually have a go at me and tell me i'm going to give myself brain damage holding my breath.
Is it in anyway useful to know what blacking out feels like, so tha maybe you can recognise the lead up symptons in the open water?
I'd not thought about that, whether I'm conditioning my body to black out or not, I can't think of any long term mechanism for that to happen. I certainly wouldn't be trying this trick on a day when I'm diving, as apparently having one blackout can predispose you to having another. As for recognising blackout symptoms, It's a much quicker onset. There isn't really any sign of peripheral hypoxia, but I certainly do get tunnel vision, and can sort of feel myself going under.
I can assure you that holding your breath wont damage your brain, but blacking out for a extended period of time could. It could be wise to know what it feels like allthough you should (as you probably know allready) only attempt such excercises like holding your breath to the point of BO with supervision who knows how to rescue you if you do it in the water, allthough I do think you will probably breathe before the time as your body will take over at a certain stage. Another thing knowing what a BO feels like will not necesarily help you stop it as it can occur in so many different situations so one BO will never be the same as the next in practicality. Theres a thread here http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/71040-swb-reducing-risk.html that explains a bit on how to reduce the risk should you feel yourself on the limits or close to the onset of BO 
Yeah I've heard it's a pretty quick onset. And I suppose that even if you begin to get symptons in the water, there is very little you can do about it, and you just have to rely on your buddy to get you to the surface.
I think it's a blood pressure thing - packing blackouts are not too uncommon. Almost guaranteed packing BO for me if I max pack in an upright position.
Be careful - once I was sitting cross legged on the ground and I had a packing BO and gave myself the mother of all hits to the head as it connected with concrete only a foot or 2 away.
In Australia we were doing some packing research at a hospital and a mate had a big packing BO whilst hooked up to the ECG machine.... I think the doctor was about to run for the crash cart when his arms and legs started flailing everywhere
Be careful - once I was sitting cross legged on the ground and I had a packing BO and gave myself the mother of all hits to the head as it connected with concrete only a foot or 2 away.
In Australia we were doing some packing research at a hospital and a mate had a big packing BO whilst hooked up to the ECG machine.... I think the doctor was about to run for the crash cart when his arms and legs started flailing everywhere
Haha! Although I suppose it's not actually that funny...
I wouldn't personally practice packing, at least not unless i'm lying down with someone supervising me.
As far as blood pressure goes I have an interesting theory. I watched a program about eating fish. This guy took his bleeding time (time to form a scab from a fresh small cut) and it was four mins. After a month of eating fish every meal it had doubled to 8 mins. This is because fish thins the blood (makes it less viscous). This also means that blood pressure would be reduced wouldn't it?
Through my logic having thinner blood must be good for freediving. It takes less effort on the heart to pump blood around the body and blood circulates easier.
What do you think? I've started eating fish twice a day but if it makes it harder to freedive i'll stop immediatly.
I wouldn't personally practice packing, at least not unless i'm lying down with someone supervising me.
As far as blood pressure goes I have an interesting theory. I watched a program about eating fish. This guy took his bleeding time (time to form a scab from a fresh small cut) and it was four mins. After a month of eating fish every meal it had doubled to 8 mins. This is because fish thins the blood (makes it less viscous). This also means that blood pressure would be reduced wouldn't it?
Through my logic having thinner blood must be good for freediving. It takes less effort on the heart to pump blood around the body and blood circulates easier.
What do you think? I've started eating fish twice a day but if it makes it harder to freedive i'll stop immediatly.
I always had it in my head theoretically that thin blood wasn't as good for freedivers, you'll have to search around the forum though, I can't remember the source.
But in any case the benefits of eating fish will far outweigh anything you notice as a recreational freediver. We're talking marginal things here.
But in any case the benefits of eating fish will far outweigh anything you notice as a recreational freediver. We're talking marginal things here.
Well thats good then... I love fish and I kow it's good for you.
Do you know of any threds that specifically talk about freedive diets?
Do you know of any threds that specifically talk about freedive diets?
Sorry to be offensive, but I really worry about your mental health. Normally I would tell that only a fool or a stupid kid (that you are not according the age in your profile) may intentionally repeat such experiments. I understand that it can happen to many freedivers by accident, but seeing someone doing it on purpose is completely incomprehensible. And posting such stupid advice on a public freediving forum that is being read by many inexperienced beginners including kids is comprehensible even less :rcard :rcard :rcard
This trick is just a variation of choking games that are popular among kids and teens and are responsible for a great deal of juvenile death. Read more about choking games and the increasing mortality among kids for example here:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choking_game"]Choking game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
'Choking Game' A Deadly Trend - CBS News
Teen Choking Game
Hyperventilation - A Deadly Game
and many more in Google under keywords "choking game" or "hyperventilation game"
Although you may be able to keep your breath for 5, 6, 7, or even more minutes without any danger of damaging your brain (as long as you do not black out, you brain is apparently still sufficiently supplied with oxygen), it's definitely not true if you cut the oxygen supply to the brain artificially by hyperventilating or packing and decreasing the blood pressure. Even if it takes just seconds, the brain suffers hypoxemia much more than in an 8 minutes controlled apnea. Any blackout can cause damage to brain cells (often irreversible) and seeing your posts here I suspect if it was not the case with you already. I do not see any other possibility why an adult guy would repeat such stupidity on purpose and even recommend it to others on a public forum. :rcard :rcard :rcard
Sorry again for being so rude, but I am firmly convinced that you deserve it.
Last edited:
Trux, I accept your point that it is unwise to discuss such topics in a public forum that is often viewed by beginners and minors, without making a disclaimer that no one under any circumstances should attempt this themselves. I will make it clear now that I do not suggest that any one tries this, as similar actions such as the choking game that you mentioned have been implicated in the deaths of several young people. I do wish to point out that such deaths are attributed to heart failure due to pressure on the carotid artery and associated baroreceptors, an area which is not directly affected by the packing manouvre, however this does not rule out damage from packing related blackouts. My interest in the mechanism of this is due to my background in physiology and neuroscience.
I reserve the right to perform questionably sensible and potentially life threatening experiments on my own body, in order to satisfy my own curiousity. I know full well the risks I am taking, but for me the risks are worth it for the knowledge I gain. In this particular case I was interested in the effect that blackout would have on my tinnitus. On a side note, a nobel prize has recently been awarded to Dr Barry Marshall for his own self experimentation (with heliobacter pylori, granted, not hacking his own physiology)
I do think we should discuss this sort of subject in these forums, many people in here are educated to make their own decision about what they read. I think the sharing of information about these topics is both good and necessary, and in this case has thrown up the valuable lesson that care needs to be taken. I do take your point Trux that I should be far more careful with my language to ensure I don't appear to be encouraging potentially dangerous behaviour.
There was also a nurse trained in resuscitation present when I attempted this, so I may be crazy, but not totally.
Cheers,
Crazy Lachlan
As for doing this to train for what a b/o feels like....well, you probably realized that you DON'T see it coming, it hits with NO warning. You realize that you blacked out as you're coming around from it! I experienced my first (and so far only) b/o while I was doing a few packing stretches, sitting in front of my computer. I was doing more and more packs and holding for 10 secs. Finally, I did 30 packs, started the hold, relaxed into it.....and came to lying on my side on the floor. There was no warning that I was going to go out, it just happened. But, I was glad to have the experience, to at least know what it's like.
Todd
Todd
Thanks for the explanation and apology, Lachlan. However, I am still persuaded that the fun-tip was completely displaced and very dangerous. If you have self-destruction intentions, or if you think you really discover something new by intentionally initiating blackouts, or enrich the science with such experiments, you may better contact real scientists and medicin doctors - either they'll appreciate your help or will take care that you get the right therapy.
It is not that choking games caused the death of several young people. According to Wikipedia:
The numbers are much higher world-wide, of course.
The cause of the death varies. It is not only due to pressure on the carotid artery as you claim. The reason can be plain strangulation, head injury due to falling, hypoxia, heart arrest, and others. The mechanism also differ, and the carotid pressure is only one of many variations of the game (I recommend reading the douments I referred to). Your fun-BO-trick definitely belongs to this category and is nothing else than the others - a stupid and dagerous game. When packing, the brain is starved of oxygen, because of reduced heart output (when its crushed by lungs, hence has just reduced volume). When it is combined with hyperventilation (and most freedivers hyperventilate during their breath-up, although most of them deny it) and hypocapnia (from the hyperventilation and from packing itself - the packing definitely reduces the natural CO2 level in lungs which is normally higher than in the atmosphere) and with a sudden blood pressure drop, the brain may suffer hypoxemia for time long enough to damage brain cells. So if you are looking for a Nobel price for finding a new way to induce dementia quick and fast, just go ahead with your experiments, but please avoid posting such "tricks" here. We want to know tricks to avoid blackouts, not to induce them, so once you discover the other way around it, do not hesitate to let us know.
It is not that choking games caused the death of several young people. According to Wikipedia:
The numbers are much higher world-wide, of course.
The cause of the death varies. It is not only due to pressure on the carotid artery as you claim. The reason can be plain strangulation, head injury due to falling, hypoxia, heart arrest, and others. The mechanism also differ, and the carotid pressure is only one of many variations of the game (I recommend reading the douments I referred to). Your fun-BO-trick definitely belongs to this category and is nothing else than the others - a stupid and dagerous game. When packing, the brain is starved of oxygen, because of reduced heart output (when its crushed by lungs, hence has just reduced volume). When it is combined with hyperventilation (and most freedivers hyperventilate during their breath-up, although most of them deny it) and hypocapnia (from the hyperventilation and from packing itself - the packing definitely reduces the natural CO2 level in lungs which is normally higher than in the atmosphere) and with a sudden blood pressure drop, the brain may suffer hypoxemia for time long enough to damage brain cells. So if you are looking for a Nobel price for finding a new way to induce dementia quick and fast, just go ahead with your experiments, but please avoid posting such "tricks" here. We want to know tricks to avoid blackouts, not to induce them, so once you discover the other way around it, do not hesitate to let us know.
I am with Trux on this one. I do not understand why you would intentionally induce BO and even less why you would post that sort of information on an open forum. Most of us are here to learn how to improve safety and increase performance not to win stupid bets. Hey, by all means do your experiments and direct us to the finished research findings, but be careful about what you post and how you post it.
Wow....
What's the big deal? All LachlanWA was posting was the so-called ATRC test that I posted on deeperblue way back in 2001 as a primary method I used to train for the WR in CW.
I coined it 'ATRC' = ability to retain consciousness
The only caveat is that you should bend over the moment you feel you won't retain consciousness. With proper training & diet, it is possible to crouch down, stand up quickly, inhale and pack rapidly and retain consciousness without even any lightheadedness. It is a fantastic method to determine your physiological resistance to a blackout on any given day at any given time. Think you may be dehydrated? Find out for sure with the ATRC test.
In 2001 when I was doing deep dives, I would 'score' my result on the ATRC test based on the degree of lightheadedness (I would do it about 1 hour before getting in the water). If I scored less than 8, there was no way I was even getting in the water, for it meant a certain blackout at the end of my target dive.
The exercise is not only a gauge of your ability to retain consciousness, but it acts as a training/adaptation exercise for your brain-- called 'ischemic preconditioning' if you look it up in the scientific literature.
The key ingredient is to never allow the actual blackout or samba. The moment you feel you will 'fail' and pass out, you bend over and crouch down. The idea is to come as close as possible to the blackout without actually blacking out. I used to do the exercise up to 6 times per day, and each day my resistance to blackouts increased.
My scoring system was from 0-10, where 5 was barely pass (no BO or samba, but almost), 10 was pass with no light-headedness at all. Anything 4 or under meant you had to crouch down to avoid a failure.
What's the big deal? All LachlanWA was posting was the so-called ATRC test that I posted on deeperblue way back in 2001 as a primary method I used to train for the WR in CW.
I coined it 'ATRC' = ability to retain consciousness
The only caveat is that you should bend over the moment you feel you won't retain consciousness. With proper training & diet, it is possible to crouch down, stand up quickly, inhale and pack rapidly and retain consciousness without even any lightheadedness. It is a fantastic method to determine your physiological resistance to a blackout on any given day at any given time. Think you may be dehydrated? Find out for sure with the ATRC test.
In 2001 when I was doing deep dives, I would 'score' my result on the ATRC test based on the degree of lightheadedness (I would do it about 1 hour before getting in the water). If I scored less than 8, there was no way I was even getting in the water, for it meant a certain blackout at the end of my target dive.
The exercise is not only a gauge of your ability to retain consciousness, but it acts as a training/adaptation exercise for your brain-- called 'ischemic preconditioning' if you look it up in the scientific literature.
The key ingredient is to never allow the actual blackout or samba. The moment you feel you will 'fail' and pass out, you bend over and crouch down. The idea is to come as close as possible to the blackout without actually blacking out. I used to do the exercise up to 6 times per day, and each day my resistance to blackouts increased.
My scoring system was from 0-10, where 5 was barely pass (no BO or samba, but almost), 10 was pass with no light-headedness at all. Anything 4 or under meant you had to crouch down to avoid a failure.
That sounds sensible Eric but I think LachlanWA was just trying to impress the bystanders.
"The key ingredient is to never allow the actual blackout or samba." Well this is exactly was he was trying to achieve.
Maybe we should all become familiar with your ATRC test. I will do a search!
"The key ingredient is to never allow the actual blackout or samba." Well this is exactly was he was trying to achieve.
Maybe we should all become familiar with your ATRC test. I will do a search!
Yes, admittedly there was an aspect of that, mind you in hindsight there's not nuch impressive about lying on a beanbag convulsing. I am often unable to perform pack stretches without some sort of consequence. I usually stop when my vision darkens, but often I 'll come to on my bed (where I do my stretches) before I've realised I'm going under. What I have learnt is that if I "bear down" on my chest, tightening my abdominal muscles, I can avoid a blackout. I was shown "ATRC" in the context that Eric mentions it, as a method of determining the likelehood of a blackout. It does for me raise the question, is the very short duration for which I lose consciousness likely to induce hypoxic brain damage, given that I am out for a maximum of about five seconds, and my circulating blood volume is at normal oxygen levels and circulation will return as soon as I release the pressure on my lungs (involantarily)