Blood Loss makes a difference

[gman]

:duh So I am doing my O2 table today and it is time for my new max. I have been experiencing success with my CO2 tables for the past few weeks and thought it was time to try. I whipped through my O2 table from last time with not too much trouble. I rested for a good number of minutes, like last time, and went for it.
Well, not only did I not make a new PR, but I did not even make my old one. Man I was perplexed. I was analyzing everything from diet to caffeine to posture in my chair. Then it hit me:head I gave TWO units of red blood cells yesterday. DUH

I guess the whole RBC-hematocrit-hemoglobin thing really is a factor. Anyone know how long it may take to recover?? I cannot give blood now for 112 days per the blood bank, but they are pretty conservative.

 

[efattah]

It will take about 3 months for you to recover, and, without hard training, you will never recover back to your original level. Elevated hemoglobin/hematocrit levels require very hard and diligent training with good nutrition. Months of painful training are lost in an instant when you give blood.

Although I believe in being a good citizen and giving back to the community, the sad thing is that (in my opinion), giving blood is one thing that is really detrimental to a freediver. If you are going to give blood on a routine basis, then there really isn't much reason to torture yourself with any training....

It is kind of like being a body builder, going to the gym, building big muscles (which takes LONG), and then 'giving muscle tissue' as a donation, bringing you from 220lbs of lean muscle back to 160lbs. Now you start from scratch again-- kind of takes away the purpose of going to the gym.

 

[gman]

Well Dang!!!

What is the most intensive and effective method to elevate hemo/hema levels? O2 up the wazoo, C02 up the wazoo, apnea walks? I can get the nutrition and rest and hydration stuff pretty well I think.

 

[gman]

I just did a little research on the 'net regarding hematocrit levels. The articles are saying that high levels are indicative of heart risk. It said that anything over 48% in men was a risk compared to those less than 40%. Mine was 51% and the tech just about did a backflip she was so excited.

So, now I have more questions:
1)does training increase levels to a dangerous level?
2)Can I get by giving blood since as my levels seem higher than "normal"?
3)What is an example of a hematocrit level for an experienced freediver?

Thanks again....

 

[BatRay]

The tech was happy that your levels were high?

 

[gman]

Well apparently if they were too low they couldn't take out two full units of RBC's. What they do is take out two units of whole blood, spin out the RBC's and give me back my platelets and plasma. Essentially a dilution. If the 'crit level is too low they don't want to risk taking any extra.

DISCLAIMER: I am a biologist by training so all these words made sense to me, but I am not a physician or phlebotomist so everything I just told you I learned yesterday in the blood bank office....

 

[efattah]

First of all, I don't buy the 'high hematocrit = health risk.'

The reason this appears to be so is that usually people with thick blood (high hematocrit) have ANOTHER health problem -- smoking, lung disease, sleep apnea, chronic altitude exposure, etc...

Athletes are among the healthiest people and they have very high hematocrits.

Apnea training can give you a very high hematocrit, Sebastien Murat reached 63% at one point (Hb=21g/dl).

 

[Oldsarge]

As a guess, eat lots of liver and move to Denver? Better yet, Quito, Peru?

 

[naiad]

What about the freediving girls? Is the regular blood loss a significant disadvantage?

Lucia

 

[gman]

As a guess, eat lots of liver and move to Denver? Better yet, Quito, Peru?

If I could find a job in Denver, Boulder actually, and could convince my wife that it is really not THAT cold there, I would move. Nevery really liked liver that much. Psychologically it is just to hard to eat a filter....

 

[gman]

What about the freediving girls? Is the regular blood loss a significant disadvantage?

Lucia

Good question.

 

[gman]

More thoughts:
We do the same thing folks with sleep apnea do, only we do it to ourselves on purpose. So I wonder if high 'crit levels are a symptom of a problem rather than a problem themselves. If high 'crit levels can be explained, and there is no other reason for alarm, perhaps it is okay.

I sure wish there were a caridologist on board to chime in.

 

[fcallagy]

Eric,
If I can ask a silly question how important are crit levels to Joe bloggs out recreationally diving at the weekend? i can understand at a competition level where every advantage counts but for me not competeing is all training not worthwhile or just not as worthwhile as it could be ?

 

[efattah]

High hematocrit isn't necessary for good diving, but average hematocrit is quite important. If you have anemia, you are in deep trouble -- I once knew an anemic diver and her diving ability was very poor. As Sebastien Murat discover, and I have confirmed, developing a strong vasoconstriction response is by far the most important factor in diving ability. A diver with powerful vasoconstriction will easily out-dive another diver who is in better shape with better blood. Of course, good vasoconstriction with good blood is even better.

We don't do the same thing that sleep apnea people do, because they don't get quality rest, and we do. For us to simulate sleep apnea would be like doing apnea training and then sleeping for 2-3 hrs per night, every night. Very soon your body would suffer.

 

[Evita]

What about the freediving girls? Is the regular blood loss a significant disadvantage?

Lucia

I also think this is a good question - I was wondering the same thing when I started reading this thread. Any takers?

 

[Bill]

The important thing is the amount of blood lost. Gman is talking about 400 or 800 ml I think (not sure of the size of a unit).
A few years ago I lost 1.75 liters of blood in three days (some kind donor gave me 400ml to make it 1.35 net loss) and still managed a static at 90% of my PB one month later. With all the other things involved, I must have been replacing about 30cc per day.
How you feel, about and during the loss, probably affects the performance way more than the loss itself. Seems like the body would be well trained to replace blood.
Aloha
Bill

 

[gman]

They took two pints of blood out but then gave me back my plasma. Overall my volume did not decrease, I am just short two pints worth of RBC's. I really do not want to stop donating, and doing the "R2" is the best bang for the buck. I would like to think that my body is savvy enough to make up for the loss. Besides, if I keep rotating out my blood, I will keep it young and fresh right?

If I have to I'll just train even harder and more severly to make up for the
loss and get my new RBC's up to speed with my older ones. I did notice, though, that I felt really funky and tingly for a number or hours after my max attempt. Good thing it was on dry land huh???

 

[pkotik]

I had a chemotherapy-induced anemia in 2004-2005, with hemoglobin around 8. I found walking the 8 strides from my bed to the toilet got me winded !

Freediving ? Are you kidding ?