Blood shift during static?

[naiad]

I have noticed that when I do statics in the pool I go very pale. This is noticed by my buddy when I surface, but I am still pale when I get home about 2 hours later, so it couldn't only be due to hypoxia. I don't feel strange in any way when this happens.

It doesn't happen when I do normal swimming or go to the gym, so I don't think it's caused by cold water, exercise or short periods of holding my breath. I haven't noticed a similar effect during or after dry statics. I don't know about dynamics, I'll try to see what happens next time.

I don't do any empty lung or FRC training. My statics are done with packing to normal volume, but not much on top of that.

Has anyone noticed anything similar, and is it possible to have blood shift during statics?

Lucia

 

[OceanMan]

It is not blood shift, for sure.

 

[DeepThought]

Tricky definition

Depends on what is your definition of blood shift.
Peripheral vasoconstriction - blood shifting from constricted peripheral blood vessels to the core of the body? your case sounds right for that.
Blood shifting to the pulmonary blood vessels to compensate for negative pressure? not so likely if there is no negative pressure at any point.

 

[fpernett]

Re: Tricky definition

Blood shifting to the pulmonary blood vessels to compensate for negative pressure? not so likely if there is no negative pressure at any point.

There is another way to be exposed to negative intrathoracic pressure and is the contractions, against a closed glotis. It's called Mueller maneuver. When you have strong contraction the intrathoracic pressure goes down and the blood flow from the limbs to the right side of the heart can increase a little bit.

 

[naiad]

Re: Tricky definition

Depends on what is your definition of blood shift.
Peripheral vasoconstriction - blood shifting from constricted peripheral blood vessels to the core of the body? your case sounds right for that.

That seems a likely explanation. Maybe it's part of the dive reflex?

There is another way to be exposed to negative intrathoracic pressure and is the contractions, against a closed glotis. It's called Mueller maneuver. When you have strong contraction the intrathoracic pressure goes down and the blood flow from the limbs to the right side of the heart can increase a little bit.

There might be some of this. I don't usually have strong contractions, and often don't have any at all, but I do sometimes have a tension of the diaphragm during the 'struggle phase'. This may draw blood from the peripheral vessels towards the core.

Thanks for the explanations

Lucia

 

[DeepThought]

Re: Tricky definition

There is another way to be exposed to negative intrathoracic pressure and is the contractions, against a closed glotis. It's called Mueller maneuver. When you have strong contraction the intrathoracic pressure goes down and the blood flow from the limbs to the right side of the heart can increase a little bit.

Suspected that might happen as well, just tought it is far less likely but I stand corrected.

That seems a likely explanation. Maybe it's part of the dive reflex?

It is.

 

[Absolute]

Good job. Sounds like you are getting a good work out of the blood shift to me.

 

[Panos Lianos]

1) It CAN be due to the hypoxic situation. I've seen people (and myself too) being sort of "yellow" after hypoxic training.

2) It is probably not due to the dive reflex, since although there is peripheral vasocontriction, the carotic artery is dilated when you go hypercapnic (contractions).

How much packing do you do exactly?

 

[naiad]

I'm glad to know that it's a good thing!

It always looks strange when I get home from diving and all the colour has gone from my face, but if it helps me then I like it.

Lucia

 

[naiad]

Hi Panos,

We posted at the same time!

I don't know if it is due to being hypoxic, as I wouldn't describe it as yellow, just pale.

It does seem to be an immediate reaction to holding my breath for prolonged periods underwater, so it sounds like it could be the dive reflex. Some people's faces go red when they hold their breath, but I don't, at least not in the pool.

I pack until I reach about the same volume that I could do by taking a full breath on land. This is about 8 or 10 packs. I do this because I am not strong enough to take a full breath with the water pressure on my chest. This is because...
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showpost.php?p=573270&postcount=7"]DeeperBlue Forums - View Single Post - Heart issues[/ame]

Thanks for the reply

Lucia

 

[Panos Lianos]

Some people's faces go red when they hold their breath, but I don't, at least not in the pool.

Not if they hold it for long enough

Yes, pale / yellow, we're probably talking about the same thing. It's just that my english is getting rusty...

If I was to bet on this, I would say you're hypoxic. You see, one of the things that the dive reflex helps us with, is to keep our heads getting enough oxygen (while we HAVE oxygen) and not have it used by our arms, legs. For this same reason, when we measure oxygen saturation during breath hold, it's much better to use an ear unit rather than the finger "clip".

What exactly do you do during a static session (times/intervals etc) and then go pale?

 

[naiad]

Maybe I am hypoxic, and this causes the dive reflex, which causes blood shift...

I do static times of about 4:00-4:30 with a PB of 4:45 in the pool. I like to do at least 3:30, and often 4:00, on the first attempt. The intervals are usually about 10 minutes, with a 2 minute breath-up. This is too long for me, and if I could choose the interval time it would be about 4 or 5 minutes. My PB was done with a 3 or 4 minute interval after the previous static, and this is what I always do for dry statics.

Lucia

 

[Panos Lianos]

Dyring a long static you are both hypoxic and hypercapnic. Hypercapnia will make your carotic artery dilate (more blood going to your head). Hypoxia will make you pale (because of lack of oxygen in the blood that goes to your head).

From what you describe, I would say the paleness is probably due to your hypoxic state.

Do you get equally pale if you only do a hypercapnic set?

 

[naiad]

I haven't done a hypercapnic set in the pool recently - I'll give it a try.

Maybe I get hypoxic because of the short intervals.

Lucia

 

[DeepThought]

Cold water/weather will get most people pale as well, just a reminder...

 

[Erik]

There was a time when I was training daily for competition and at the height of it, I could hold a breath at any time with no warmup and the blood would drain out of my arms, plus I could hold for 4 minutes.
Eric Fattah has noticed the same effect.
I don't think that bloodshift should be discounted.
Peace,
Erik Y.

 

[fpernett]

I don't think that bloodshift should be discounted.

I agree, there is evidence that just head out immersion produce an increasing of thoracic blood volume.

 

[immerlustig]

but wouldn't that be the result of fast vasoconstriction? maybe it's the definition of the term 'bloodshift' again. i use it in context with equalizing pressure in the lungs only. vasoconstriction causes blood redistribution generally, so naturally there should be blood 'shifting' into the lungs as well. similar effect, different circumstances. maybe it's just academic.

roland

 

[naiad]

That's more what I meant - bloodshift due to vasoconstriction, not due to negative pressure in the lungs.

Lucia

 

[naiad]

Today I went swimming and did some laps on the surface, and also some no-fins dynamic of up to 25m. The pool was warm, about 29C, and I wasn't cold at any time. When I got home everyone noticed that all the colour had gone from my face!

I wasn't feeling ill, cold or exhausted. I have been doing a lot of apnea training recently.

I thought the thing of going pale was caused by cold water or long apnea, but by now just being in the pool does it!

Maybe I've got a very good dive reflex that lasts for hours!