blue/purple lips after static

[apfire26]

My pb dry is 4:04. This was done about 6 months ago. When I finished the hold my buddy told me my lips were blue/purple. Yesterday I decided to go for a pb static in the pool. I succeeded with a 3:47 hold. Very heavy contractions for the last 60 seconds or so and again I had blue lips.
I'm obviously showing signs if hypoxia, but my question is....is this normal for a breath hold near four minutes? Am I able to hold longer in theory before causing harm to myself? Do guys that hold 6+ minutes show hypoxic signs at the 3 or 4 minute mark and just go further? Or am I at the point in my holds where I need to find a way to conserve more o2 so I'm not putting myself in danger if I hold any longer?
I hope my question is clear enough, thanks.

 

[azapa]

Your question is quite clear.

The blueness is very normal in extended holds and is a great sign of hypoxia. I have seen people in which it is gradual, and others in which the colour changes just seconds before a blackout. I can even remember safetying one guy whose ears went purple and had a samba just seconds later.

I would not worry about it, rather use it in your training with your buddy, as he gets to know you he will be able to read what is happening and how longer you will have left without trouble.

You will never be able to "cause harm to yourself" in a voluntary breathold with good safety, unless you have some medical condition (no idea what that might be).

 

[apfire26]

Thanks for your input. Do you know if its a learned technique to lengthen the time in which the color change takes place? Or is it always going to happen at aprox the same time? I'm assuming that if I can manage to use less o2, then it may delay the onset of the color change. Am I correct in thinking this?

 

[pingshui]

I always thought blueness comes from high co2 and not from hypoxia, isn't it?

 

[trux]

No, the cyanosis (as it is correctly called) appears at certain level of deoxygenated hemoglobin in the blood. It means it comes easier at people with high level of hemoglobin (although they are less hypoxic than an anemic person would be in the same situation).

The time is not identic, and is dependent on many factors, so it is no factor you should rely on.

From WikiPedia:

Cyanosis is the appearance of a blue or purple coloration of the skin or mucous membranes due to the tissues near the skin surface being low on oxygen. The onset of cyanosis is 2.5 g/dL of deoxyhemoglobin. The bluish color is more readily apparent in those with high hemoglobin counts than it is with those with anemia.

 

[Simos]

There are always a few people at training that consistently have bluer lips than others - don't think you can use it as a reliable indicator (although coming to think about it some of those did push themselves a bit harder than the rest)

 

[growingupninja]

Thanks for your input. Do you know if its a learned technique to lengthen the time in which the color change takes place? Or is it always going to happen at aprox the same time? I'm assuming that if I can manage to use less o2, then it may delay the onset of the color change. Am I correct in thinking this?

As your dive response becomes more sensitized through training and careful self-observation, your body will consume less oxygen during a hold, so yes, cynanosis may start occurring later, and on holds where you are off your game it could occur earlier than usual. I think read somewhere that cynaosis occurs only after blood O2 saturation is below 80% (which for most freedivers is hypoxic although nowhere near blackout), although in some people it does not occur until their blood O2 sat is much lower.

 

[apfire26]

As your dive response becomes more sensitized through training and careful self-observation, your body will consume less oxygen during a hold, so yes, cynanosis may start occurring later, and on holds where you are off your game it could occur earlier than usual. I think read somewhere that cynaosis occurs only after blood O2 saturation is below 80% (which for most freedivers is hypoxic although nowhere near blackout), although in some people it does not occur until their blood O2 sat is much lower.

That makes sense. When i practise dry statics at work I will sometimes use a pulse ox which gives my spo2 %. I notice that close to the 3 minute mark my % starts to plumet. I think its gotten as low as 55%. But Im not postive, its been a while sense Ive practised at work. Im going to check it out next shift if I can. I will try to see at what % the cynanosis begins. Its kinda scary watching it drop so low..lol.

 

[trux]

I think read somewhere that cynaosis occurs only after blood O2 saturation is below 80%

No, as I wrote, the cysnosis is not directly relevant to hypoxia, but only to the absolute content of deoxygenated hemoglobin in blood (appearing at 2.5ml/dl). At a person with high Hb it can occur at a rather high saturation, while an anemic person will black out before the cyanosis has the chance to appear at all.

 

[apfire26]

So Trux...if my Hb is on the high side, then I may always get the cyanosis early even if I am capable of going longer, right?

 

[growingupninja]

That makes sense. When i practise dry statics at work I will sometimes use a pulse ox which gives my spo2 %. I notice that close to the 3 minute mark my % starts to plumet. I think its gotten as low as 55%. But Im not postive, its been a while sense Ive practised at work. Im going to check it out next shift if I can. I will try to see at what % the cynanosis begins. Its kinda scary watching it drop so low..lol.

I use my pulse O2 meter a lot for dry training, but have noticed some interesting trends that are difficult to test--namely that it is just another kind of clock watching that can interfere with DR. I long ago realized that tables were more difficult if I was watching a clock, and dives were always easier if I stayed focused on the moment as opposed to ever thinking much about getting to the bottom while descending and conversely focusing on the surface when ascending. My best holds (and by best I mean ones where I ended up with a higher blood O2 sat than others of the same time length) are frequently ones where I put the O2 meter down and just stay kind of blank minded. More recently, I was doing some full lung statics watching the meter I and started getting some real bradycardia much, much earlier than usual, although as soon as I realized this, my HR climbed back up. Water seems to evoke a better response though--ducted taped a bag over my finger yesterday and did some 50's while wearing the meter; I was surprised and relieved to see some bradycardia after a slow 50M swim while my O2 was still 98%; this was a consistent trend that continued until I started to breathe.

 

[Simos]

So Trux...if my Hb is on the high side, then I may always get the cyanosis early even if I am capable of going longer, right?

Something like that :crutch

 

[Simos]

No, as I wrote, the cysnosis is not directly relevant to hypoxia, but only to the absolute content of deoxygenated hemoglobin in blood (appearing at 2.5ml/dl). At a person with high Hb it can occur at a rather high saturation, while an anemic person will black out before the cyanosis has the chance to appear at all.

Agree but at the end of the day, it should also correspond to a particular % (assuming you establish what this % is) right? Ie if you did use an oxymeter, cyanosis should consistently appear roughly at the same %..

Also, I know it sounds a bit silly, but do you think purple lips show something different than blue? (purple meaning that there is a high Hb and thus still oxygenated Hb too)