BOs in competitions resulting in a ban?

jome · Feb 9, 2007

Hi,

I don't remember where I saw this idea, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. So what do you think?

For safetyreasons, I think it would make sense to enforce a temporary ban for a freediver for blacking out in a competition.

For example:
-Surface BO in pool -> Banned from competing in AIDA comps for 2 weeks
-Surface BO in open water -> Same
-BO below surface in open water comp -> Banned for example 1 month

The severity of the ban remains debatable, but what does everyone think of the general idea?

There should, of course, be extra clauses like:
-if bo is caused by organizer fault (rope too long etc), ban is not enforced
-Where to draw a line between a BO and a really bad samba? (for example, not able to even try to make SP during 15 sec window, but is lifeless or needs rescuing)

turtle · Feb 9, 2007

Not averse to the idea, but what are the safety reasons?
Seems more like a penalty than a safety measure in some respects from first impressions.
f

jome · Feb 9, 2007

Well there are two things I consider:

1. Someone who has suffered a blackout is more suspectible to suffer it again if he dives in the near future, and sometimes people will dive still in the same competition! IMO the minimum should be that a BO results in the athlete being banned from the rest of the starts of the same event
2. It would perhaps make divers think twice about trying/announcing depths or performnaces they are not ready for. For example doing a BO in the first day of the WC team would be disastrous for the whole team - so even the more kamikaze type divers would probably thing twice.

Then again, it might change nothing.

Anyway, I do think that BOs are nowadays in many comps treated a little too lightly...You know, "oh, it was just a bo...nothing serious. I thought someone had an accident". It is serious! Not only as a health thing, but if the organizer thinks selfisly, it is very bad publicity, so it would also serve the organizers purposes to show that "this is not accepted" and enforce some kind of punishment.

fcallagy · Feb 9, 2007

Jome not having done a comp yet this may not be a valued opinion. I had supposed that a BO already was a ban for the comp or at least that day. I think two weeks or longer some what draconian as it does seem more of a punishment rather than a safety precaution. From a competitors point of view to travel a long distance to a wc and be banned after the first event would be an almighty kick in the teeth. I suppose it depends where Aida ( we ) want freediving comps to go. Pushing boundries is all very well and maybe BOs are treated too lightly in our community it will always depend on the diver and their condition at that time should they be punished because they " went for it" knew they could achieve that depth but BO because of lack of hydration not being used to heat or due to onset of stomach bug etc should they then be punished to such a degree.

OceanMan · Feb 9, 2007

In France, we have bot AIDA and CMAS competitions.
In CMAS competitions, if you have a BO or samba in a competition, you are disqualified for the entire competition.
And if you have one BO in one competition of the apnea cup or if you have been disqualified twice because of sambas (there are 5 competitions in the apnea cup), you are disqualified for the french CMAS championship.

I have not thought this through yet. So I can't tell what I think about it. If it's fair or not.

jome · Feb 9, 2007

Yeah, 2 weeks is a lot. I think there definately should be different sanctions depending on the severity.

IE if someone has a deep BO in cw, 2 weeks is not at all over the top, just from a health point of view.

Then again, a "small" bo in static or dynamic is usually less severe. So maybe just DQ:ing that particular day or something would do.

Sometimes there are so few competitors for example, or the level is so low, that it is possible that a diver with a BO can still be in the medals. Personally, I think this does not send the right message to anyone involved...So I think a BO in the results of a competition should nullify the total points count for the person for that day. So if for example the comp was dyn+sta, and the person had a BO in the latter, total points would be zero, but they would still get to keep their rank in DYN.

Sound too harsh?

fcallagy · Feb 9, 2007

It will depend if as a community we really want to try to eliminate bo as much as possible or if we are prepared to accept them as part of the sport. I feel its still seen as merit to some extent if you have BO and that you have not been pushing yourself hard enough if you have not had a bo yet. How many of the top freedivers have never BO in their career ? Also can a local competition decide that for its ranking it can give nil points or DQ from the comp if a BO occurs or does it have to use AIDA regulations all the time ?

trux · Feb 9, 2007

DQ for the given competition would be OK from my point of view. I am not sure about the disqualifying for longer after it - as a punitive factor it may miss its purpose, because I do not think that there are too many freedivers competing each week or two. And making it considerably longer would ruin the entire season which may be too harsh, and might have counterproductive result - increased pre-start stress and possibly even higher number of sambas and BO's. The stress is definitely a factor at BO's - we have in our club several freedivers who had LMC or BO during competitions doing just ~75% of their PB, although it never happens to them during the training.

From the health point, it won't have any impact. If the freediver cannot compete, he will almost certainly train immediately anyway. I think we can conclude that the effect would be purely punitive.

Besides it, I am afraid such rule might be abused for strategic manipulations, and could lead to many complaints, similarly as it was the case with LMC. It is often very difficult to distinguish between strong samba and BO. And why should be BO punished, and strong samba not? And when punishing strong samba, why not also mild samba? Telling what level of LMC or BO you have may be quite difficult and extremely subjective.

Another problem are LMC's/BO's caused by the organizer - for example stress added by the organizer due to last minute schedule change, too long rope, unsuitable tags (like it was the case in Egypt), etc. What to do then? As we saw in Egypt, allowing to repeat the attempt is not the best solution - AFAIK, at least one of those who repeated the attempt, blacked out again, although he was well in his secure margin. But DQ is too harsh, especially if it is a team competition - maybe giving some points in such case, but not allowing to compete for the rest of the event would be better and more secure.

Well, I agree that something should be done - BO's and sambas are far too common, but think that it will take a while before some acceptable and maximally objective system is in place.

jome · Feb 9, 2007

What I'm after is not an experienced diver having a BO once, or even twice in their career.

But the guys who have more BOs than white cards...

I don't think in any sport the "not trying hard enough" is a very good indication of wheather or not the performance was all it could be. It's not a problem for pro athletes, they are able to push as hard as need be. More of a problem may be trying too hard in relation to your reserves and current level. It needs to be more objective than that. In a good performance, the athlete knows in millisecond accuracy just when to save strength and when to go all out.

A BO performance wise, in my opinnion, is the same as a marathon runner crapping out 10km before the finish line - which is not acceptable for a pro, but rather amateurish. It's not considered a merit to not be able to judge your own strength so well as not to finish your performance...

Anywho, rambling, rambling...

turtle · Feb 9, 2007

I think it would be easier to have a proper discussion about what should/shouldn't be, were the focus more on health and were the issues surrounding repercussions/lasting effects of BOs and sambas better known. Ultimately, the punitive side comes down to an issue of health too - or is it aesthetics? Therefore i think we could do with directing to a thread regarding this, or if none exists yet, some input from the big guns on DB (Frank, Ben, Eric, Seb etc.)

When I have seen people who have had serious BOs at a competition, that is to say at extreme depth, neither of them were particularly in the mood to dive again immediately after. Both of them in fact complained of muscle pains during the following night (dehydration cramping, or something else?)

Good thread Jome, you always seem to be starting good debates going!

fred

fcallagy · Feb 9, 2007

Just to switch it around a little what about rewarding those more than come up toatally clean like a bonus of some extra points in the rankings if you have never had a bo, it would have to be handicapped in such a way so as to make it fair. Encourageing instead of penalising.

BennyB · Feb 9, 2007

This is a very interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up Simo.

My opinion is that I would disagree with a periodic ban from competition for blackouts (or LMC either minor or major). I could almost entertain the notion that a BO in a comp means you're out for the day, however it's a big expensive world out there and i'll be damned if I spend hundreds of pounds on turning up to a competition to be ruled out straight away. And it's pretty good for me being based in London as I can get to most places relatively inexpensively. For my fellow countrymen back home, a jaunt over to the other side of the world for a competition could cost up to a month's salary and if they were to BO in comp and be banned from the comp then that would be the last you would probably ever see of them.

BUT

That said, i'm a bit old-school in my thinking, in that I believe that the onus is on the competitor to get the best result from a competition, and in comp this translates to getting points. It's in the competitor's best interests to ensure they get the most points they can. A 52m dive is worth zero points if you BO. No points, no international ranking. If you want to see what your limits are, that's what (responsible) training is for. I can't understand how people can push themselves to the point of BO in comp, to my mind it just doesn't make sense when they do it time after time. Sure enough, shit happens and people can accidently push too far or have external circumstances out of their control, or may just be inexperienced. That happens, and so be it. But if people continually BO in comp they really have to ask themselves why are they there in the first place.

I've never blacked out in comp (or in training for that matter), it's all part of my comp strategy to maximise my points. Know the rules, don't DQ yourself.

I can see how serial offenders need to be pulled in a bit, perhaps this should lie in the domain of the AIDA National to enforce... something like 3 BO's in a row and you're banned from the next national comp? It's a hard one.

I can also understand and appreciate that the high level athletes are at the very top of their game and have a different emphasis than many, that of breaking world records and competing against probably only a handful of other athletes. In this regard a higher rate of BO could be expected and probably should be tolerated. In this sport it's not often a world record breaker makes the rules.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Ben

naiad · Feb 9, 2007

I don't agree that competitors who BO should be banned. There can be many factors contributing to a BO, including stress, pool too cold/warm, certain foods and drinks, tiredness, previous exercise etc. These can't always be anticipated - if the competition pool or surrounding area is extremely cold or warm, it is unlikely anyone would have known this in advance.

Banning competitors who BO assumes that all BOs are caused by unrealistic performances, but they can be caused by many other factors. If someone is blacking out repeatedly in competition or training due to excessive performances or incorrect technique, I think they should be advised about this, and eventually banned if the situation becomes unacceptable.

Lucia

efattah · Feb 9, 2007

In Canada, fewer and fewer people are attending competitions, and in fact the popularity of freediving competitions seems to be on the decline in general (around the world).

Banning the few competitors which actually show up for the competition would pretty much wipe out the possibility of any more competitions.

In a world where there were thousands of competitors, and only a few highly qualified people actually qualified for the competitions, then I would agree with the 'ban' principle. However that isn't the real world.

BennyB · Feb 9, 2007

Keep in mind too that the organisers always have the right to not allow particular people to enter the comp - people who have no medicals, or people who have a proven history of irresponsible behaviour in comps.

Eric - can you shed some light as to why comp freediving is becoming less popular? Have there been less competitions in Canada lately than in the past?

Cheers,
Ben

efattah · Feb 9, 2007

If you want to know why competitions are becoming less popular, all you have to do is ask a few people who used to be frequent & motivated competitors, and who have now stopped competing (or compete much less).

Most people have had a bad experience of some sort, related to competitions.

These often include:
1. Extreme political tensions & power struggles amidst a national team, or amidst people trying to get on the team
2. Realization that freediving is about enjoyment of the sea, or the apnea state, and realization that the high stress environment generated by today's 'style' of competition isn't fun at all, and has little to do with the true spirit of freediving
3. The experience of training for months, spending tons of hard earned money, to go to a competition, where the diver has only ONE chance to do a dive or breath-hold, and to either experience an organizational difficulty which prevents the diver from reaching full performance, or to experience a questionable judgement via the jury, or the diver gets sick, sinus block, ear squeeze, or some other one-shot thing which prevented just that one dive. The diver then feels worthless, having invested huge amounts of time and money, to be told by the judges and the results list that in actual fact they suck as a diver (which isn't necessarily true).

The answer or solution is quite clear, and is exemplified by the upcoming Ibiza Grand Prix competition. In the Ibiza competition, nationality has no function, and anyone can enter, unconstrained by any national entity. This automatically removes all politics and power struggles. Second, it is not based on maximum depth, but instead hitting a target depth. This removes the need for extreme training and stress of competition day. Third, the DRUMS system removes the narrow window for the diver to start the dive, instead allowing a large comfortable window to begin, removing more stress. Fourth, it allows announcing your target just moments before, based on HOW YOU FEEL, which is what freediving is about.

I am an example of someone who used to compete a lot, but now seldom compete. The Ibiza competition is highly tempting though, since I know there will be no politics, and little stress, and even if I don't have time for hard training I'm pretty sure I can hit a depth while blind.

fcallagy · Feb 10, 2007

The grand prix should be interesting but i think its down to us as a community as to where we go or will there be two branches ( i didnt say a split ) as its more likely that depth records etc will be broken with pressure on the competitor to perform thats what competing is surely raising the bar etc. Ibiza will be an interesting experiment and may prove to be a lot more enjoyable to participate in but will it increase depths ? surely if it does we are back to a stressed or pressurised athlethe. When do we say thats deep enough or do we ever? Freediving is personal for me as i dont expect to win wc or set records a bit like a triathlon i know i will not be coming 1st 2nd or 3rd so i only try to best my last time and thats the way for most people i think. The "race" is with yourself and exploring your limits. how many people of all the competitors enter comps with a real notion of having a shot at the title ? 20-30% i would guess but i could be wrong the rest i think are competing for themselves. maybe a team comp is different as you will have different abilities on the team. Or i could be completely wrong on it all.

osusim · Feb 11, 2007

I guess better ban the person for life and cancel all records in the past. We've got too many recods. And in a case of organizer fault, ban the organizer for life also.
jome, did you sleep well?

cebaztian · Feb 11, 2007

osusim said:
I guess better ban the person for life and cancel all records in the past. We've got too many recods. And in a case of organizer fault, ban the organizer for life also.

Another idea - lets get rid of the safetydivers. That would save money and time and the BO athletes will learn a lesson the hard way, having to take care of themselves or wait for the Anti ballast to be deployed.

Seriously - I wouldnt mind a rule that stops a BOathlete from further compeeting that day and in case of a below surface BO also ba from compeeting the next day. Let the person rest and reflect upon their "sins".

And regarding respecting the athletes feeling. I have tried to offer athletes to make last minute changes (less depth) in http://www.fridykning.se/nordicdeep. According to Aida rules there has to be a point reduction if the official AP is not met, but I as an orginazer does not want an athlete doing an "on the edge dive" just because conditions has changed since the Ap was given some 12-16 hours earlier.

And also I believe that most ideas in the Ibiza Grand Prix has a future. And I dont think we will see "a split". Aida will folllow the main body of freedivers whereever they go. It is good that organizers "challenge" the aida rules now and then to explore alternatives - the rules are far from finished.

http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/cnfgrandprix.html

Sebastian

naiad · Feb 11, 2007

I think blackouts should be discouraged (as they are now, by giving the performance 0 points), but not further punished. IMO, a blackout is a mistake, not a crime.

Lucia

BOs in competitions resulting in a ban?

Should BO result in a temporary ban in competitions?

Bad idea

Good idea

Maybe, but needs work

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