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Breathe-up vs hyper-ventilation

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Penyu

Member
Jan 31, 2015
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Hi everyone,

got a question relating to my pre dive breathing routine.

For a good couple of minutes I breathe diaphragmatically for a count of two (bit more than two seconds maybe). I hold for two. Then breathe out very slowly, retaining the air flow slightly but without force or tension with the glottis, for a count of 10, later 15. I wait for two and breathe in again for two, ....

After a couple of minutes of this I breathe in diaphragm and chest (about 70-80%) and breathe out fully. Once again breathe in full, full exhale. Then comes the last full breath, no packing.

My question now is, am I hyperventilating? Its not the classical short and fast kind, but am I lowering my CO2 levels with this routine? If yes, how much? Is it a safe breathe-up or am I kidding myself here?

I appreciate your comments!

Cheers!
 
Yes, but without watching you, I can't tell if its significant. Your pattern is relaxing, but I can't tell much about volume. Think about it this way. Is your breathup significantly more total ventilation than just forgetting about your breath and letting you body control it? If yes, you are probably hyperventilating enough to increase your BO risk. The real function of breathup is rest and relaxation. If what you do for the several minutes before the dive is relaxing without hyperventilation, great. A purge breath or two(what you are doing) on top of that isn't enough hyperventilation for most divers to worry about and can add considerably to the comfort of the dive. If your breathup includes substantially more ventilation than when you forget about it, then adding purge breaths on top of that is a bad plan.

Connor
 
This is a stupid question and maybe I've asked before. If I did, I didn't get it.

If the danger of hyperventilation is lowering CO2 levels so that we don't get a proper warning, then why do people do CO2 tables to increase their tolerance to CO2? Why not just hyperventilate?
 
Penyu, even if your breath up causes only small increase in lung ventilation, doing it for several minutes can still blow off much CO2 from your body. You can test this breath up during dry static. If it significantly delays contractions vs. tidal breathing plus only one full exhale and inhale you are most likely hyperventilating.
 
Thanks for your answers so far!

@ cdavis: since I only inhale diaphragmatically (no chest expansion) and exhale very calmly for a much longer time than in tidal breathing, I hope the slightly larger inhale is offset in terms of total ventilation volume over time. Is it (increased) total ventilation volume over time that defines hyperventilation, or the proportion of time exhaling as compared to inhale times?

@ MarcinB: this is precisely the conundrum. Are the longer breathholds and later onset of contraction that I do achieve a result of hyperventilation (which I do want to avoid) or due to deeper relaxation as a result of stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system with long exhales and diaphragmatic breathing? Is there a way to quantify CO2 levels similar to oximeter readings for O2?

@Bill McIntyre: Not a stupid question at all. Bohr effect aside there is a similar 'logic' behind doing CO2 tables and hyperventilating, in that both 'methods' bring you closer to your BO threshold. I do do CO2 tables to increase my dive time, but wish for a way of increasing it without getting ever closer to my BO threshold. Looking at the amazing STA times some people achieve this must be made possible not only by expanding CO2 tolerance, but also through more efficient O2 usage. In other words, not only their CO2 (pain) threshold gets pushed further, but also there actual BO threshold. I still lack the understanding though, how this can be achieved through training and what role CO2 tables play in expanding the BO threshold rather than pure CO2 tolerance.

In othere words: How do you expand your breathold times other than training to get closer to your BO threshold?
 
On hyperventilation vs CO2 tables;
Hyperventilation delays the onset of contractions and the need to breathe, which causes a hazard because you cannot reliably predict the point of blackout, CO2 tables on the other hand do not delay the onset (significantly) instead they train your body to cope with the symptoms, allowing you to remain more comfortable with high CO2 levels. In fact some people have toyed with breathe ups (see the FRC for the average diver thread) which actually aim to increase your CO2 levels in order to produce a stronger dive response, which, counter-intuitively, can extend your dive time by increasing blood shift and slowing your heart rate further.
 
MarcinB's point that even relatively mild hyperventilation carried out for a substantial time blows off way too much c02 is a very important concept that too many divers don't think about. I certainly did not. His test is a very good one, and easy to do. I've played with the same, testing various breathup strategies, and it is very obvious when you are hyperventilating to a substantial degree.

"In other words: How do you expand your breathold times other than training to get closer to your BO threshold?"

Build C02 tolerance through tables or just diving a lot. Diving works better.

Learn to dive FRC, about half lung. This is very effective for recreational diving in moderate depths and mild conditions, more effective than anything else I've tried. It works in other situations, but how well varies a lot with the diver. Done correctly, it pushes your BO "threshold" farther out, allowing longer and safer dives. Note: it takes a while for your body to get used to it.
 
@Penyu, as far as hyperventilation is concerned the proportion between duration of inhale and exhale is not important. What counts is so called alveolar ventilation (the volume of air reaching the alveoli per minute). If it exceeds current needs of your body, excessive amount of CO2 is removed. If you consciously modify the natural breathing rhythm it usually leads to some degree of hyperventilation.

Concerning the reason why your breath up delays contractions it can possibly result from both hyperventilation and reduced rate of CO2 production. However, I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of the yogic breathing in reducing the metabolic rate. Long exhale doesn't stimulate whole parasympathetic nervous system, it only increases activity of the part innervating the heart. As a result the heart rate goes down, but it increases again during the inhale. In my case this pattern of breathing results only in larger fluctuations of the heart rate. The average number of beats per minute remains the same as during tidal breathing. Moreover, the available scientific studies indicate that different types of yogic breathing actually increase oxygen consumption (see the introduction section of the attached paper).

As far as I know it is not possible to measure blood CO2 level in a non invasive way. However, you can measure CO2 content of the end-tidal air (the air leaving the lungs at the end of exhale). It is a very close estimate of arterial CO2 level and it can be measured using a capnometer.
 

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Reactions: Kars
Marcin, you find some very interesting stuff. Thanks

That paper's demonstration of greater lowered 02 consumption after a combination of mild exercise and relaxation compared to pure relaxation is fascinating and unexpected. It also seems to follow my experiance both in the pool and in easy diving conditions
 
Reactions: Kars
@cdavis :
cdavis said:
Build C02 tolerance through tables or just diving a lot. Diving works better.
Click to expand...

But doesn't more CO2 tolerance mean getting closer to my BO threshold unless I simultaneously lower my O2 consumption significantly? Even with more DR there will be a point where my CO2 tolerance 'catches up' with my level of hypoxia. No?

cdavis said:
Learn to dive FRC, about half lung. This is very effective for recreational diving in moderate depths and mild conditions, more effective than anything else I've tried.
Click to expand...

I love the idea of FRC diving. Tried it a little bit, but wasn't sure how much of an advanced technique this is (quite a newbie myself). Videos of Bajo fishermen diving exclusively FRC convey and amazing calmness and lightness. Quite the contrary impression to people packing to near bursting capacities.

@MarcinB :
MarcinB said:
as far as hyperventilation is concerned the proportion between duration of inhale and exhale is not important. What counts is so called alveolar ventilation (the volume of air reaching the alveoli per minute).
Click to expand...

If in tidal breathing I inhale for 2 and exhale for 3 seconds, I supply the alveoli for 24 seconds per minute worth of air volume. If I inhale 2, hold 2, exhale 10, hold 2, I only supply roughly 8 seconds worth of air volume per minute. In this sense I would significantly 'under-ventilate'. However, if the expression 'blowing off CO2' is literally correct, I do indeed blow off far longer per minute with my method compared to tidal breathing. Maybe I am getting it all wrong, but to me it seems like the proportion does matter. Please correct me!

The wealth and depth of knowledge in this forum never ceases to amaze me!
 
to elaborate: When I started FRC diving, I spent a lot of time in the pool testing various breathups and dive patterns to see what worked best. The style is very relaxed, and very similar to my open water FRC diving style. What works best is mild exercise punctuated with total relaxation, and it seems to get better(how it feels and performs) as time goes on. Of course, lots of other things are happening, c02 buffers, cumulative blood shift, etc, etc, but the pattern seems right.

On breathup, I started out with my old standard, deep breathing, fast in slow out. Pretty quickly i realized that less tidal volume worked better because its more relaxed. Then I graduated to minimal breathup. In my case I had to conciously suppress my breathing, because forgetting about it went back to deep and slow. Took a couple of years to break the automatic deep breathing habit, but now I just forget about it for a couple of minutes. The last minute or so I'm again aware of breathing and try to make sure it gets less and less (with no urge to breathe), I'm looking for that "zoned out" meditative feeling. Finally, two purge breaths and go. I'm working on dropping to one purge. Doing it dry, there is no difference in time between using 3 or 1 purge when doing exhale statics to the first contraction.

Penyu, read the FRC for the average diver thread. Take it slow and easy and its an easy technique to use and not hard to learn.

On C02 tolerance, like a lot of stuff in freediving, it depends. Depends on how you apply it. If you do a lot of tables, reduce your co2 tolerance, then go out and hyperventilate, you are definately getting closer to your BO threshhold. If you use increasing co2 tolerance to ventilate less and take down a bit more co2 than normal, It can substantially extend your BO threshold. Blood shift and the Bohr effect mean there is a lot more 02 available to your brain. That is the FRC approach.
 
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Reactions: Kars
If you under-ventilated you would soon feel the urge to breath deeper. If in both situations you mention above tidal volume was the same, in the latter case lung ventilation would be of course much lower. However, if you prolong exhale substantially you usually increase tidal volume as well (otherwise you would run out of air too soon during exhale). Lung ventilation depends only on the number of breaths per minute and the volume of air you inhale during each breath. Below is the link to a study where yoga breathing was found to substantially reduce blood CO2 levels.
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/handle/123456789/6931
 
@cdavis : Started reading the monster thread on FRC. Really intriguing. I certainly am the recreational type, not worried about maximum depths that much. Still, the potential for lung squeeze at moderate depth worries me a bit. Guess taking it slow is key.

@MarcinB : Good point about urge to breathe if I was actually under-ventilating . I guess my breathup pattern pretty much matches the yogic breathing. It does induce a really nice and swiftly developing state of calm. Too bad it blows off CO2 as well. Do you think that brief holding times after inhale and exhale could rebuild the lost CO2? That way one could reap the calming benefit without the risks associated with hyperventilation.

Will read the FRC thread thoroughly. Maybe all these questions are answered there already.

Thanks so much for your advice!
 
Penyu said:
Do you think that brief holding times after inhale and exhale could rebuild the lost CO2?
Click to expand...
It is of course possible. However, as I wrote previously, if you interfere with the natural breathing rhythm you can never be sure that you are not hyperventilating.
 
Reactions: Penyu
MarcinB said:
It is of course possible. However, as I wrote previously, if you interfere with the natural breathing rhythm you can never be sure that you are not hyperventilating.
Click to expand...


This is the REALLY TRICKY part. If you mess with your natural breathing rhythm, it is very difficult to know if you are hyperventilating significantly, darn near impossible to measure in the water. Intense hyperventilation, huffing and puffing, is easy to see and feel. Much more than a purge breath or two can increase the risk of BO substantially. But even slightly above natural rhythm for long enough can be as dangerous as huffing and puffing. It is very difficult to know where you are at with mild over-breathing.

Connor
 
Great discussion going on here, Deeperblue at it's best!

What I'm missing is the acknowledgement of the mental benefits that Penyu's current routine serves.
From what I gather, Penyu is fearful of having a black out, and wants to reduce that feeling.
I guess bo is still an shady and unknown area for Penyu?

My guess is that eliminating any hyperventilation from your preparation routine 'breath-up' is not going to change much your fear of a bo. Sooner or later it will resurface, because it is still an unknown.

The way to gain that certainty, is to venture close to your personal limitations, and explore your mind and body close to those limits.
Off cause with a buddy in static like sessions; which I think is the discipline that allows you the safest and most precise exploration.
Explore at your own pace and have enough rest as it is a mentally taxing exercise.

Now onto the mental benefits of a 'breath- up' preparation routine serves. The benefits I find are: focus, reset and alignment of body and mind, physical and mental relaxation, triggering mental and bodily responses in anticipation of what is coming.
With your current routine you find certainty in counting and numbers. Actively counting and measuring your breathing routine. I Like Connor's suggestion and insight, to first consciously change your preparation, and once it's automated let go of mentally controlling it. I'm also a big on mentally being in the moment; witnessing but not controlling. It's still a challenge to me, but from my experience the best feeling dives; were those where I lost the sense of time and I enjoyed the sensations of the moment. Being in 'flow'. In order to get there it's important that you're focus is on the right task at the right time. A task that is actionable and current. Something like: swim and relax. Targets like I have to get to the next wall are not conductive, as it shifts your mind to the future and encourages measurements and mental calculations like "will/can I make it?".

In summery: 1. find a buddy and explore in static your personal limits. 2 evaluate your current 'breath-up' and change it into a 'preparation routine', I like the one Connor expertly suggested.
 
A little beyond the scope of the original question, but I'll happily steal a thread for a good cause.

As Kars notes, there is more to "breathup" than just getting your blood gas levels at the right place. Some wise divers have commented that the "breathup" is not about breathing, its really about rest and recovery. Time is the only solution. That's true, as far as it goes, but I'm looking to get into what I call "dive mode" i.e. gas levels right, deeply relaxed, meditative state, etc. Kars lists some more that are part of the same thing. If you can do all those things, you will be in for some long, comfortable, and rewarding dives.
 
Kars said:
From what I gather, Penyu is fearful of having a black out, and wants to reduce that feeling.
I guess bo is still an shady and unknown area for Penyu?
Click to expand...

You are right Kars I have never BOed and I don't plan to. It is a scary thought for me and one that is at odds with my entire aesthetic appreciation for freediving. In boxing I accepted to get hit as being part of the game, but in freediving I am looking for more harmony. When reading through the FRC thread Connor suggested, I came across this passage:


I must say that pretty much sums up my approach.

Its true though that a breathup regiment reassures me on the one hand and the lingering thought that I could hyperventilate and provoke BO does the opposite.

I have tried very gentle FRCs with prior mini statics and I am surprised about the comfort of the dives. Will definitely continue to explore into this direction. I noticed though, that even at depth of 3.8m in my local pool I do get the feeling of having to clear my throat after exhale statics (that are slightly less than half lung). I have experienced the same sensation of a slightly hoarse voice and feeling that I got something stuck in my throat after diving full lung in chilly alpine lakes (12 C), still shallow depths no deeper than 20m. Can trachea squeezes occur at such shallow depth and if yes, how can one prepare to prevent them?
 
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