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breathing research
- Thread starteraqua
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Thread Status: Hello
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I am surprised that the CO2 tolerance of the divers and non-divers was the same. Some of my progress has been due to hyperventilation and packing, but I'm sure that without those methods I can do a lot longer statics and dynamics than I could when I started. Maybe it is the combination of high CO2 and low O2 that makes the difference, and one without the other is more difficult to deal with.
maybe the level of pain due to increased co2 is the same - but the ability to stand that pain might still be different. So in the examination the freedivers group would still have been able to continue for much longer under increasing co2, although they bailed out at the same point of time in that specific examination.
i'm curious too about the packing examinations...
i'm curious too about the packing examinations...
It's fascinating stuff. A few of the Aussie freedivers have participated in a lung packing study. I can't go into the results as they have not been published yet (plus it's a bit technical for my feeble mind!), however one of the things the scientist mentioned was that when she presented the first draft to a group of doctors, a couple of them were already familiar with packing as they had quadraplegic patients that packed air to assist their breathing. Apparently quite a few have learnt the technique by themselves. The loss of muscle use around the chest/lung area makes breathing very difficult and these guys have intuitively started packing when they breath.
It's an interesting world isn't it?
It's an interesting world isn't it?
I don't think this is about tests with Tom in Boston. I read this quite some time back... As fas as I know Tom did some other test inclucing ct-scans of his lung (with helium) and test about the pressure in lung while packih (he swallowed a baloon for that 
)...
)...so wait, does this mean apnea jogging is pointless other then to potentialy increase lung capacity?
It really makes you think twice about torturing yourself doing CO2 tables and apnea jogging!
Could this mean that working on better relaxation to reduce the metabolism and proper ventillation would be more beneficial that doing tables? But I guess doing tables help you with that because you get to see what works and what doesn't.
Could this mean that working on better relaxation to reduce the metabolism and proper ventillation would be more beneficial that doing tables? But I guess doing tables help you with that because you get to see what works and what doesn't.
I think we all would agree that the CO2 tables help. This study seems to blow the doors off of the "why they help" question. It would be nice to have access to the details of this study. But in the meantime we are left to speculation.
This is a very exciting study to me. It leads me to believe that this sport is in the phase of "intuitive training". Great strides will be taken, as we understand freediving more thoroughly. Also, that physiological variables may play a smaller role in freediving excellence than anyone might have guessed.
I hope this ignites a fire in scientific communities to try to design quality studies that might quantify what makes an elite freediver.
This is a very exciting study to me. It leads me to believe that this sport is in the phase of "intuitive training". Great strides will be taken, as we understand freediving more thoroughly. Also, that physiological variables may play a smaller role in freediving excellence than anyone might have guessed.
I hope this ignites a fire in scientific communities to try to design quality studies that might quantify what makes an elite freediver.
i agree, CO2 tables can make a difference, but its all mental, its just learning to cope with it like boxers and soldiers cope with pain, reading a book wont teach you, you need to go out and do it. does anybody have a list of any good CO2 or O2 tables? my homebrew ones seem like they need to be replaced oh by the way, is it good to do an all out max hold at the end? i need some good ones for up to 3 minutes. and what are dynamic tables? same idea of building up but for distance?
also i would think apnea jogging has been disproven. anybody want to counter?
also, whats a really effective method for increasing lung capactiy, and working out the epiglotis (tongue doesnt work for craming, and it makes me want to cough because i can hold it, until i get underwater (due to outside pressure it gets better).
thanks -Matt
oh by the way, is it good to do an all out max hold at the end? i need some good ones for up to 3 minutes. and what are dynamic tables? same idea of building up but for distance? also i would think apnea jogging has been disproven. anybody want to counter?
also, whats a really effective method for increasing lung capactiy, and working out the epiglotis (tongue doesnt work for craming, and it makes me want to cough because i can hold it, until i get underwater (due to outside pressure it gets better).
thanks -Matt
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Apnea jogging had good results with me.
6.5mph on the treadmill. Breathe for 20 sec hold for 10 and repeat for 30min. Real good way to get the latic acid in the legs going and get the heart beating.
Of course these are my times and speeds. Adjust them gradualy and don't over do your self. Consistancy is the key.
6.5mph on the treadmill. Breathe for 20 sec hold for 10 and repeat for 30min. Real good way to get the latic acid in the legs going and get the heart beating.
Of course these are my times and speeds. Adjust them gradualy and don't over do your self. Consistancy is the key.
According to this study, your CO2 level doesn't get painful at much later stage. I mean you cannot handle more CO2. The only way to stay consistent is to say that your CO2 level builds up more slowly. That way you would think that you could handle more CO2 which is wrong. So according to this study, the only way to progress would be to produce less CO2 per unit of time during the apnea.naiad said:
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CO2 levels dont give me pain, regardless of stage. i do get a terrible uncomfortableness, but not pain. just like pain (or anything else) you can block it out. havent you seen those people that can lie down on needles, and then people get bircks broken over them and stuff. i see it, and there injuries are real, the feeling are not. they can be overcome.
my way of getting around uncomfortablness is looking at it from a perspective that i want that feeling. think about it, working out isnt the most pleasant experience its hard work and seems fairly long term to be fueled 100% by motivation. but people work out, get spent, and cant wait till the next workout. its almost addictive. its not pain, but it isnt all that pleasant.
when i hold i cant wait untill the conraction comes, then i will be more focused and wont worry as much, i love the internal frame of mind it gives me, like some new level of conciousness or something. i feel the feeling, but i take it happily and say "lets see other do this" generaly when i come up for air, i do it happily, but i cant wait for my next dive. kind of like when your at the reef, you cant wait to get back to the fish. i cant wait to get back inside myself, and explore deeper and deeper.
my way of getting around uncomfortablness is looking at it from a perspective that i want that feeling. think about it, working out isnt the most pleasant experience its hard work and seems fairly long term to be fueled 100% by motivation. but people work out, get spent, and cant wait till the next workout. its almost addictive. its not pain, but it isnt all that pleasant.
when i hold i cant wait untill the conraction comes, then i will be more focused and wont worry as much, i love the internal frame of mind it gives me, like some new level of conciousness or something. i feel the feeling, but i take it happily and say "lets see other do this" generaly when i come up for air, i do it happily, but i cant wait for my next dive. kind of like when your at the reef, you cant wait to get back to the fish. i cant wait to get back inside myself, and explore deeper and deeper.
For me the feeling of CO2 isn't pain, but an intense bad feeling. I guess that is what most people mean. I agree that a lot of it is 'mind over matter', that the feeling can be overcome.
I find that it is possible to overcome it by trying to think of it in a positive way, and to accept it. This is easier if I have been training a lot.
I find that it is possible to overcome it by trying to think of it in a positive way, and to accept it. This is easier if I have been training a lot.
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I think there are several interesting ideas that have been discussed in this.
However, no one has mentioned a major limitation to the study. The study involved increasing CO2 at the same time as O2 was dropped. That gives you two variables changed at the same time, limiting what can be said; we don't know how to separate the effects of low O2 from high CO2.
They were looking at what happens to an individual with emphasema when they can't catch their breath, so that was their focus. They also apparently didn't allow normal warm-ups for the diversblocking short-term benefits.
That the study suggested to me was that there is no LONG TERM benefit in doing CO2 tables, and maybe even to doing the O2 tables; we can't separate the two. There is an obvious benefit most of us have felt from doing warm-ups using high CO2/lowO2 before a long static or deep dive, so there we have pretty good reason to believe that short-term benefits are real and valuable. Your body turns down it's sensitivity to CO2, and hormones are released that allow at least short-term adaptation to low O2.
Beyond that, the study suggests that the mental aspects are crucial to the whole thing. You can use whatever tools make you feel good, but its the calm, comfortable aspects of the training, slowing your mind and body, that will pay off the highest dividend.
My 2 cents
Howard
However, no one has mentioned a major limitation to the study. The study involved increasing CO2 at the same time as O2 was dropped. That gives you two variables changed at the same time, limiting what can be said; we don't know how to separate the effects of low O2 from high CO2.
They were looking at what happens to an individual with emphasema when they can't catch their breath, so that was their focus. They also apparently didn't allow normal warm-ups for the diversblocking short-term benefits.
That the study suggested to me was that there is no LONG TERM benefit in doing CO2 tables, and maybe even to doing the O2 tables; we can't separate the two. There is an obvious benefit most of us have felt from doing warm-ups using high CO2/lowO2 before a long static or deep dive, so there we have pretty good reason to believe that short-term benefits are real and valuable. Your body turns down it's sensitivity to CO2, and hormones are released that allow at least short-term adaptation to low O2.
Beyond that, the study suggests that the mental aspects are crucial to the whole thing. You can use whatever tools make you feel good, but its the calm, comfortable aspects of the training, slowing your mind and body, that will pay off the highest dividend.
My 2 cents
Howard