Buteyko, asthma, breath holds and training.....

[cyclist]

Hello there,

I'm just learning all about free-diving and hypoxia, really really interesting and amazing what the body can be taught to do! I'm just wondering about a few things if anyone has any time to answer....

1) Even though im fit through cycling I have asthma and have a really low tolerence to CO2 - can't hold my breath for very long (about 35-40 seconds at rest after a normal exhalation) - I'm just wondering what kind of times you guys could do that for - I assume when u talk about 3,4,5,6 minutes you inhale as much as possible beforehand, and is not timed after a normal exhalation.

2) While trying to improve my CO2 tolerence both for asthma and for sport (the buyteko breathing technique for asthma basically relies on the premise that asthma is an intolerence to CO2 built up through diet, mouth breathing etc..) I've been doing breath holds while cycling. These range to 15 to 20 seconds where I exhale normally and hold my nose while cycling fairly easily. After about 15 seconds I get a sweaty and a bit light headed - just wondering is this dangerous at all in your opinion. I mean, I don't hyperventilate before at all, so CO2 levels are not depressed before i start, so do you think if I stretch these breath holds to 25 or 35 seconds that I'm still in no danger of blackout? Really don't want to blackout on a road with a truck behind me!

3) Third point (or question) is; are u guys aware of buyteko? Basically that the CO2 tolerence will fall if you mouth breath at night or doing other things during the day - and even by yawning too much and sighing etc.....and do any of you do your training by doing dry breath holds after a normal exhalation, and not after filling your lungs - surely this would mean the urge to breath comes quicker - and makes the training more efficient (altough not as specific to diving i suppose).

Sorry for the lenght of that! Just really curious about this now and you guys seem to be the experts on breath holds and training in hypoxia.

 

[lungfish]

Hi,
Welcome to Deeperblue....Great questions all....

#1) when we do breath-holds, we prepare using the "basic breath-up" to saturate with 02... full deep inhale in 3-4secs, hold for 1-3secs, exhale slowly for 15sec. With adequate preparation and with tolerance training tables, back-to-back 4-6minute breath holds are just part of the daily work out. Of course, it takes a couple months to get there. There are a couple of different schools of thought among freedivers about breath-holds and how to aproach them. Some suggest that, following the example of sea mammals, breath-hold should begin after a full exhale. Others suggest a peak inhale and pressurized lungs with extra air volume.... all breath holds should begin with a "breath up".

#2)Apnea cycling as you describe it is dangerous. You are risking a Samba (freediver for "loss of motor control) or even a full black out while riding.... We do apnea training, like apnea walking (on grass!!!) or hypoxic swimming.... there is such a thing as apnea weight training...

#3)We do different breathing patterns that focus on specific kinds of gas exchange and we do have patterns that reduce C02 prior to diving. This kind of gas exchange is somewhat complicated and advanced, clearly dangerous if you don't understand what you are doing and how you do it. Freediving at 100ft and beyond is like being on the moon, without adequate preparation there is very, very little margin for error. Blackouts can be instantaneous and can arise from a number of different kinds of circumstances. Being well versed in gas exchange techniques is critical to surviving our discipline.

I am often on this site promoting the benefits of tolerance table training. That is an important way to enhance one's abilities. But the Tolerance isn't just for C02 build up, it is also for 02 depletion... so we use dual tables to develop tolerances to both. Another way is to learn how to initiate the mammalian diving reflex, the altered physical and mental state that allows us to swim deep and long. A tolerance training enhanced diver in the MDR is an amazing thing... experiencing it is even more amazing.

Lungfish

 

[SanSan]

Hi Cyclist

and welcome to DB.
I think quite some freedivers have asthma as do I, but it shouldn't affect your freediving abilites. Well at least not much. The current AIDA static world champion Sam Still has asthma if I remember corectly.

Here is another thread that might be helpful:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=41450&page=3&highlight=asthma

 

[cyclist]

Thanks for the replies lads,

Think I might like to find out more this sport after I finish racing bikes by the way - interesting stuff.

Anyway, so you think the cycling thing might be dangerous? Well I could do it on a stationary trainer at home, and maybe if I limit the breath holds to 20 secs or so u think that would be better? In addition to helping my asthma (CO2 tolerence), I kinda want to train my legs muscles to tolerate lactic acid buildup as prep for races too. Not sure if this works, but it makes sense in my head! Maybe you know more...

Also, thanks for the link to the thread on the asthma - just to say something about some points in that thread - if any of you have asthma it might be good to look up buteyko. Its starting to work for me and seems to be based on the same principles that you guys need to understand for the diving. Also, even if you don't have asthma maybe using these breathing techniques in your everyday routine might help your dive times (by resetting CO2 tolerence levels permanently higher). ie. Most people breathe more than their metabolic rate requires whilst sleeping - and if you breathe too much at night than your CO2 level becomes lower for the night and this tends to reset the accepted CO2 level that the brain thinks is normal. This explains why asmatic symptioms are worse at night - too much breathing which lowers CO2 levels which makes the airways constrict, which makes u try to breath harder which again lowers CO2 etc...

Anyway, from your training I would imagine most of your breathing levels are good anyway...

 

[lungfish]

Hi Cyclist,

You might want to try apnea wieght training.... ie... breathup, static until the first contraction, then do 8-12 reps while in apnea. Lighter weights....

Definitely do not ride your bike while doing apnea.... or drive a car, or anything else that risks life and limb. If you try apnea walking do it in a grassy space. Sit in a chair, breath up, static to the first contraction, get up and walk d-e-l-i-b-e-r-a-t-e-l-y until you can't deny breathing. Document the number of contractions you feel and the distance you go. Repeat several times....

Always better to do this sort of thing with a partner.

The most important part of any apnea exercise is the preparation.... studying the breath-up and pre-apnea preparation is critical if you want to correctly perform the exercise and reap the benefits from the practice.

As a personal observation, I used to be tournement fighter, and before that I was a nationally ranked competitive swimmer.... When I came to freediving I realized that I was no longer practicing a sport. You can't do this by bringing high motivation and ferocity to the practice. Freediving is more like a discipline, like a martial art... there are competitions but it is difficult to think about freediving as a competitive sport. Its all about calming down, lowering heart rates, altered states of being.... very much an un-sport...

Oh, and I am asthmatic as well... I just don't take an inhaler, no matter what, and I spend a lot of time working on cardio and mental control of attacks... not that everyone can or has the luxery, just my own aproach.

Lungfish

 

[naiad]

When I came to freediving I realized that I was no longer practicing a sport. You can't do this by bringing high motivation and ferocity to the practice. Freediving is more like a discipline, like a martial art... there are competitions but it is difficult to think about freediving as a competitive sport. Its all about calming down, lowering heart rates, altered states of being.... very much an un-sport...

Maybe that's why I like it. I always thought I hated sports until I discovered freediving.

I agree that the best way to train for CO2 tolerance on land is apnea walking on a grassy space, with a partner. Even falling off a stationary bike is a serious risk. Of course, pool training is the best, but always with a buddy who knows what to do.

Lucia