C4 NEW BLADES (T700 HT Vgr series)!!!

[spaghetti]

Amazing. Italian company C4 is preparing to launch a totally new series of all carbon fins, called VGR, with four models:
C4 Flap VGR
C4 Falcon VGR
C4 Mustang VGR
C4 Fuego VGR (which seems will replace the Superfalcon).

The new features are both in the water rails (VGR: "variable geometry rails") but mostly in the blades, which will be made of a better type of Carbon (Carbonio T700 HT, "high tensile"), which is said to be much more durable and snappy than the previous. Blades will be 100% carbon of this improved quality.
Here's a presentation pic of the new fins:

 

[ulysses]

I get the feeling we are frequenting the same Italian forum

Cheers,
ulysses

 

[spaghetti]

I get the feeling we are frequenting the same Italian forum

Cheers,
ulysses

paisà, statt' citt'! acqua in bocca

 

[portinfer]

Any prices on them yet ? Does this mean that shops will be looking to 'get rid of' old stock at silly prices

Been thinking about getting carbon fins for a year or so now but having trouble deciding what to go for ...
Ed

 

[spaghetti]

well Ed these ones are not yet available, it's just a preview: the production is just about to start as far as I know.
(As for the silly prices of old stocks, well bah, I wish but I don't think they'll be so silly. Early this year, after C4 discontinued the Monoscocca spearguns, the prices of the remaing "Mono's" raised by 15-20% !!!).

 

[trux]

... Blades will be 100% carbon (no more carbon+epoxy)...

Hmm, that's sounds really weird, if not unlikely. I believe pure carbon cloth sheet, without any material to keep together the fiber, would be rather soft (like any other textile). I cannot imagine there is no filling/gluing material used. I suspect it is some kind of misunderstanding.

Otherwise, interesting news! Looking forward to some tests and reviews.

 

[spaghetti]

Hmm, that's sounds really weird, if not unlikely. I believe pure carbon cloth sheet, without any material to keep together the fiber, would be rather soft (like any other textile). I cannot imagine there is no filling/gluing material used. I suspect it is some kind of misunderstanding.

Otherwise, interesting news! Looking forward to some tests and reviews.

Let's wait and see.
Could be there's some kind of misunderstanding about the "pure carbon and nothing esle" thing. Not my cup of tea, I must confess. But I'm quite sure it's not going to be any softer.
I've now asked a friend of mine who is a chemical engineer, and he says that this new T700 carbon is used for making racing bike forks as one of the toughest and tighest type of carbon fiber...

 

[trux]

I've now asked a friend of mine who is a chemical engineer, and he says that this new T700 carbon is used for making racing bike forks as one of the toughest and tighest type of carbon fiber...

Yes, I believe that, but still cannot imagine that's only pure carbon cloth with no epoxy (or other material) to keep the fiber texture together and in the desired shape. Can you ask your friend about it?

I also wonder when we'll see fins made from carbon nanotubes instead of carbon fiber I guess the price would skyrocket at least ten folds

 

[spaghetti]

Yes, I believe that, but still cannot imagine that's only pure carbon cloth with no epoxy (or other material) to keep the fiber texture together and in the desired shape. Can you ask your friend about it?

I also wonder when we'll see fins made from carbon nanotubes instead of carbon fiber I guess the price would skyrocket at least ten folds

In facts Trux you were spot on and I'm a jackass. The "glueing" material is present to keep together the 100% carbon fiber (no fiberglass).
...
By now, a detail of the VG rails side view: cool, no doubt looks cool!

 

[twentytwomonk]

What's the difference between those and the rails on the original Mustangs? I thought those were already huge?

 

[trux]

In facts Trux you were spot on and I'm a jackass. The "glueing" material is present to keep together the 100% carbon fiber (no fiberglass).
...
By now, a detail of the VG rails side view: cool, no doubt looks cool!

No, no jackass - we can't all know all the details about the technology. I thought that the claim about no epoxy at all came directly from C4 and was wondering what exactly it meant. After your explanation I understand now that they speak about 100% carbon cloth, with no glass fiber, and of a superior quality than previously. I wonder though if the current Flaps and Falcons are made of carbon/glass composit - I always believed they were 100% carbon too. I hope the C4 girl peeks in sooner or later with some info. Perhaps we should ping her by PM or email - if she does not come regularly and does not use RSS notification about C4 threads, there is little chance she spots this thread

As for the rails - I wonder how long they keep (the old ones) on your blades. I find them extremely thin and fragile, and lost practically all of them within few weeks of use. I though about getting rails from Breier, which are much more solid, but am not sure if it would not make the blade less flexible and responsive. Well, now I broke one blade anyway, so will have to decide whether I get a new C4, or rather other blades

 

[ulysses]

Does this mean that shops will be looking to 'get rid of' old stock at silly prices

Apparently: YES! => Pinne : Scubazar, Aquista qui la tua attrezzatura subacquea

Happy Shopping Ed

Cheers,
ulysses

 

[spaghetti]

Apparently: YES! => Pinne : Scubazar, Aquista qui la tua attrezzatura subacquea

Happy Shopping Ed

Cheers,
ulysses

wow, thanks Uly: that's news to me And the new Flap Vgr are available from today!

 

[twentytwomonk]

Hey Spaggers, did you ever get a set of the VTR 30's? If so, hoe'd they work out for you?

 

[Nata]

C4 girl is there

I'm sorry if I'll be confused and if I'll make grammar mistakes, but I just come back from 1 week hollyday in Santo Domingo, jetlag makes me confused...

Well, that's true, we have a new VGR series.
Those 4 new type of fins and blades have:
- new water rails VGR - variable geometry rails - Patent pending
- 100 % T700 carbon fiber

The T700 carbon fiber is a HT fiber ( hight tensile fiber). This is an important carachteristic for fins, because those are more resistant ( +40% ) than the others, but with the same flexure.

In attached there is a file that maybe can help you

 

[hteas]

Is there some sort of difgference among the blades shown above? I find it rather hard to believe that the flap really helps that much over the others.
So where is there a real description of real differences?
All I see is sales gimmicks, except for the 2 footpocket styles that are used. Those I understand. I also really like the concept of the new footpockets going without the side rails. The side rails have always made a weak line across the blades where they end.
But all these blades "styles"?
It's as bad as the gun ads where they have lots of models, but never tell you what the functional differences are.
My 2 ^$%#&^%%&*!!
Howard

 

[trux]

- new water rails VGR - variable geometry rails - Patent pending
- 100 % T700 carbon fiber

The T700 carbon fiber is a HT fiber ( hight tensile fiber). This is an important characteristics for fins, because those are more resistant ( +40% ) than the others, but with the same flexure.

Hello Nata,

Many thanks for peeking in and giving us more details. Some more questions:

1) Are the new rails stronger and more resistant than the old ones? I did not have a good experience with the old rails - they did not keep more than very few weeks. And since I imagine replacement will be much more expensive at the variable profile, having to exchange them often like it was at the old ones, would not do any good to the fins.

Also could you tell us approximative retail price for the rail replacement?

2) T700 - nice to hear it has 40% more tensile resistance, but is it really important at the blades? What exactly was the old material, BTW? And why it was not used before too?

However, if I am not mistaken, high tensile resistance is important at parts with high lengthwise strain, but I do not think anyone tries to tear the blades linearly, so am not sure if it is so important for us. And since higher tensile resistance may also come as trade off of elasticity or fragility, I wonder if you made any breach and strain tests. If so, please let us know the results - the comparison to the old blades would be more than interesting.

Does the high tensile resistance really translates into bigger resistance against blade breaches? Especially in the angle, which I hear (and experienced personally) is a common weak point at C4 blades? Didn't you consider adding more layers on the blade under the foot pocket and at the angle? If I compare C4 blades with for example carbon fins of Beuchat, those are much thicker and stronger under the foot pocket and do not break at that point.

Anyway, I am happy seeing new development at C4. Despite my negative remarks about some aspects of the C4 blades (short life of rails, fragile blade base/angle) I like(d) my C4 Flaps very much and am considering them again.

 

[trux]

... But all these blades "styles"?

Hmm, there are actually only two blade types - the classical one, and the one with the flap. I am not sure if the flap makes any big difference, but I used it and was quite satisfied with.

If you look at the webiste of C4, the difference between Flaps and the classically shaped Falcons is well explained, so your complain in not justified - the choice is quite simple: either you believe the words of the manufacturer and choose Flaps, or you are skeptic or conservative, and then you choose Falcons. The price is identical (at most retailers), so it won't play any role in your decision. It is as simple as that.

The other variants differ only in foot pockets (you can choose your favorite ones if you do not like the Mustang pockets), or in the material - beside the pure carbon, they offer also blades in cheaper materials.

 

[hteas]

Thank you trux. I had missed the two footpockt x two blade style matrix.
Howard

 

[ulysses]

Any prices on them yet ?

Ever Blue (Scubazar, Aquista qui la tua attrezzatura subacquea) sell the new models
- Mustang & Fuego @ EUR 315
- Falcon & Flap @ EUR 215

Cheers