Can't keep air in lungs (especially after packing)

[maui400]

Hi,
I'm having trouble to lock air in my lungs while relaxing. The more I pack air into the lungs the worse it gets. During a dynamics I observe this problem rather at the end of a dive, when I get tired and lacking in concentration. But during statics my throat starts releasing air through a gurgling sound already after a few seconds.
It's not only that I loose air. I also can't relax, because of that.
It seems my lower tongue (or epiglottis?) is too weak.

Did anybody observe the same problem and is there a way to get rid of it (via special breath locking technique or to train throat/tongue/epiglottis muscles)?

 

[Drowned Fish]

I've experienced much of the same while packing too hard, but then again it wasn't a comfortable breath hold because of the physical pressure feeling. I would guess that your lungs aren't flexible enough and because of that creates more force on the epiglottis than with a "lighter", more comfortable breath hold.

I only do packing (as of yet) as a means to stretch my lungs, knowing that what I gain will be lost if I have to forcibly hold my breath.

 

[azapa]

you can go a long way, or very deep, without packing. Why do you want to do it? What are your goals. Unless you are trying to break records, I (very personally) don't see the point in packing,

Try the same dives you are doing now with say, an 80% inhale. Just a light, but not forced, inhale. How do they compare, performance-wise, to a huge over-pack dive?

 

[Simos]

Completely agree with Simon (azapa) above - for probably 99%+ of freedivers I also personally don't see the point. Unless you have a strong reason to pack, why do it?

There are many dangers associated with packing (lung damage, blackout etc) and I doubt you'll gain that much in terms of performance. In fact you could end up doing worse because of loss of relaxation...

 

[martin366]

For me, packing gives only 0,73L (VC is 6,7L - with packing 7,43L)
For two friends gives 0,81L (VC 5,84L) and 1,61L (VC 5.59L)

Cant say performance difference with packing and no packing

 

[azapa]

the biggest difference I see is packing blackouts: they are hilarious to watch! I would be sad if everyone stopped packing as I would not see them anymore!

 

[Drowned Fish]

I agree with the others that packing is unnecessary if you're not going to break any records (and have a very very flexible ribcage) or push it otherwise. But I would say that packing might do very good combined with light stretching. Of course there should be a progression from a few packs in the beginning to avoid ruptures etc. This would allow the "80% comfort inhale" to rise quite a bit with patience and carefulness.

Azapa, I have never seen a packing blackout, but knowing how it works I can imagine the freediver slips away very quick.

 

[Simos]

I agree with the others that packing is unnecessary if you're not going to break any records (and have a very very flexible ribcage) or push it otherwise. But I would say that packing might do very good combined with light stretching. Of course there should be a progression from a few packs in the beginning to avoid ruptures etc. This would allow the "80% comfort inhale" to rise quite a bit with patience and carefulness.

Azapa, I have never seen a packing blackout, but knowing how it works I can imagine the freediver slips away very quick.

That's what I used to think too - you are probably right but I do remember reading somewhere a some time ago that if lungs were stretched both ways before a dive, there was an increased chance of squeeze.... Not sure how true this is.

In terms of packing blackouts, at least they are not as dangerous as normal blackouts - I think lung damage and squeeze in particular is a bigger issue....

 

[azapa]

Azapa, I have never seen a packing blackout, but knowing how it works I can imagine the freediver slips away very quick.

It's quite sweet really: the diver, all ready and geared up, packs and packs, sometimes pausing in between sets of packs (as they start feeling "out of it"), then they start their dive. In a few seconds (cases I have seen), air is released and the diver goes limp. Safety grabs them. But I have seen self-recoveries from this state - as soon as the packed air is released the diver comes back. I even know one guy who has had packing blackouts during static, released air, came around (safety never noticed - bad) and continued the static to quite a decent time.

I am probably over-trivializing the packing blackout. I am sure you could kill yourself quite easily without safety due to one. Please be careful.

 

[Drowned Fish]

That is where "progression" comes in. To allow a long term flexibility. But even so, I'm not so sure about the danger even stretching before (light stretch of course). Before an open water session at AIDA*** my instructor (top level) gave us several stretching exercises and told us that it could be helpful for relaxing at full lungs, so I have to assume that there is no danger. Don't know about higher level freediving though.

If you're alone, you're most likely still dead after a packing blackout, but if you have a buddy you will probably be fine as the blood is fully saturated with O2. I agree on the lung damage/squeeze.

 

[maui400]

Thanks guys for your concerns. I really appreciate it. I'm also aware of the limitations and dangers. But my questions weren't about pro and cons. Furthermore this problem even occurs after a simple full inhale, just not that strong.
So I'm still wondering if there's someone who knows about this issue and how to solve it.

 

[trux]

Well, an easy solution is using a noseclip. A real freediving noseclip, not one of those for synchronised swimming. You can then quietly relax the epiglotis (at least as long as we speak about pool disciplines).

 

[Simos]

Thanks guys for your concerns. I really appreciate it. I'm also aware of the limitations and dangers. But my questions weren't about pro and cons. Furthermore this problem even occurs after a simple full inhale, just not that strong.
So I'm still wondering if there's someone who knows about this issue and how to solve it.

I had exactly the same issue about a year ago - it appeared all of a sudden and lasted 2-3 weeks. I kept losing air even during 25m dynamic, just couldn't keep it in. I really remember I was very tired during that period and my body had taken a beating from various sports but also working long hours and being stressed.

I skipped a few training sessions, rested and started with easy dynamics without filling my lungs and the problem went away. In terms of keeping air in there are many ways, I usually block at the epiglottis I think but also allow air in my mouth when the hold gets tougher.

By the way I think it's normal to lose air towards the end of a dynamic when it gets tough, just practice CO2 tables and it should get better...

 

[maui400]

Thanks for the advices. I'll give them a try and report afterwards.

 

[maui400]

Ok, I didn't pack for a while. Last night I did my max with a few packs and didn't have problems locking the air.
I also tried trux's version, but I didn't feel comfortable with the approach. Maybe one needs to get used to it.

 

[Simos]

Ok, I didn't pack for a while. Last night I did my max with a few packs and didn't have problems locking the air.
I also tried trux's version, but I didn't feel comfortable with the approach. Maybe one needs to get used to it.

I had the same thing when I tried statics with a noseclip.

Undeniably it's the way to go for stronger DR but I just found it hard to relax with the noseclip, especially when things got tough.

Probably just a matter of practice and getting used to it...

 

[maui400]

Well, I did have a noseclip and goggles. But I didn't lock the pressure with my nose, which felt uncomfortable.
My only fear with a noseclip is to forget it when giving the ok sign... (I attached it to my goggles - maybe it'll help)

 

[Simos]

Well, I did have a noseclip and goggles. But I didn't lock the pressure with my nose, which felt uncomfortable.
My only fear with a noseclip is to forget it when giving the ok sign... (I attached it to my goggles - maybe it'll help)

Attaching nose clip to goggles is a must for SP I think...

If it does help at all, I usually start the hold with an epiglottis block but then switch to lip block if I get tired and the switch back. Having the air move in and out of the mouth also feels like breathing, which helps a bit mentally...

 

[maui400]

Hm, sounds interesting. I might give it a try. It maybe stirs the air a little in the lungs.
I also have to swallow once or twice, which seems to relax the epiglottis.

 

[Moana]

I've never dove with a nose clip. Fortunately I am "hands free" for clearing. It seems like a nose clip would not affect clearing that way. Anyone agree or disagree?

I was thinking about using one to make packing easier and for the occasional times ive had to pinch when I'm really deep. Also, I thought it might be nice to release the epiglottis (maui 400) block as i get around 25-30 meters to put just a little air in my mask for equalization. Just releasing that block might be enough air and easier than trying to reverse pack air out. Any thoughts?