Carbon railgun or Aluminium??

[MozSpearer]

Hi.

I've been considering what speargun would be a better option. I know I want a 1.3m gun Rob Allen(My 1m one is a bit too short of a range for me, missed 3 barracuda cus of it but got one at least: see: Awesome spearfishing trip to Inhaca Island) but donno if I should take the Carbon or the Aluminium. And which band and spear configuration would be best? Any comments or advice appreciated!! Thanx a lot guys

 

[Apneaddict]

Carbon in general is sexy... No question... But not really sure that it'll add any performance characteristics.

It'll be more expensive and you'd be more pissed when it gets it's first scratch or if someone steps on it on a boat, etc.

Either type should have a totally straight / rigid barrel and be positively buoyant in the water.

I have a Mako 120 ETR (enclosed track) and love that specific feature on anything say 120 or longer. It's great to be able to get it without paying double for a wooden gun and it's compact like a euro / pipe gun.

http://www.makospearguns.com/AR15-American-Speargun-Enclosed-Track-p/maetr.htm

The Mako guns are similar to the Rabitechs you guys have... But the ETR and new AR15 handle / reverse trigger are Mako (Tinman) innovations.

It keeps the shaft whip to virtually zero, you can beef up the (3) bands for longer shots / bigger fish / blue water while shooting as straight as a laser! Reloading is super easy as well, as the shaft just slides down the track and into the trigger mech.

I wouldn't overspend... And besides... If you get an alum gun now, you can save up for some super-exotic, carbon, water-ballasted tuna-gun from Greece costing $2k!

 

[MozSpearer]

Thanx apnea addict. Yeah, the carbon seems more expensive. I'm not really looking for fancy, just something with a strong band (18mm/20mm) with a long range. Does anybody know if they are stronger than aluminium? Or lighter per say? Or stronger per weight unit?

 

[MozSpearer]

By the way what is an enclosed track gun?

 

[Apneaddict]

Carbon fibre is much stronger than alum by weight. Most important however is the manufacturing process and materials used.

In practice, carbon guns are lighter and can get away with less material used because it is a stronger material / process.

Alum or "pipe" / "euro" style guns are much cheaper to manufacture and can be more durable.

They both are filled with air, so float in the water if over a certain minimum length (often 80-90mm)

An enclosed track is a "channel" that the spear sits in and acts as a full-length guide for the spear, as it travels down the gun.

Wood guns have these, as it is fairly easy to incorporate into a piece of teak.

Aluminum "pipe" guns or "euro" guns typically have 1 or 2 "guides" that are on top of the barrel, but do not enclose the shaft or run the full length.

The link above shows how Mako has been able to incorporate an enclosed track while still retaining the benefits of an alum type of gun. Pretty trick design!

I've got 3-bands on mine (14mm) and I could go with stronger / heavier if wanted. The track really does allow you to use a lot of rubber, while keeping the spear tracking straight, due to a lack of shaft-whip.

I can de-power it with 2-bands for a holed-up reef shot, use all 3 for blue water or even put a couple of 16mm bands on + a 14mm for tough fish or spooky ones for blue water.

It's my go-to setup for clear water.

A single 20mm band on a 130mm gun might be a bit tough to load. Consider 2 smaller bands - perhaps 2x16mm or even 3x14.

 

[sharkey]

By the way what is an enclosed track gun?

It's a solution to problem which shouldn't exist, if the gun is well made & set up.
If a spear bends to the point it needs to be contained in "an enclosed track" then the friction between the spear & track quickly reduces the extra power.
Look no further than archery equipment. Arrows are much lighter, they travel much faster, they are launched in a medium much less dense than water, & expected to be much much more accurate than spears. Spearguns can be tuned to shoot straight along the same principles, but its much easier to do with spearguns.

Enclosed tracks were popularised by some high profile spearos & in some publications about 20 years ago. It was an over enginered solution to a problem which had already been solved by many primitive cultures many thousands of years ago.

There is few if any advantages from enclosed tracks. Other than a novelty.

On the original question, the major advantage with carbon may be that it requires less care than aluminium in regards to corrosion.

Cheers Sharkey

 

[MozSpearer]

Carbon fibre is much stronger than alum by weight. Most important however is the manufacturing process and materials used.

In practice, carbon guns are lighter and can get away with less material used because it is a stronger material / process.

Alum or "pipe" / "euro" style guns are much cheaper to manufacture and can be more durable.

They both are filled with air, so float in the water if over a certain minimum length (often 80-90mm)

An enclosed track is a "channel" that the spear sits in and acts as a full-length guide for the spear, as it travels down the gun.

Wood guns have these, as it is fairly easy to incorporate into a piece of teak.

Aluminum "pipe" guns or "euro" guns typically have 1 or 2 "guides" that are on top of the barrel, but do not enclose the shaft or run the full length.

The link above shows how Mako has been able to incorporate an enclosed track while still retaining the benefits of an alum type of gun. Pretty trick design!

I've got 3-bands on mine (14mm) and I could go with stronger / heavier if wanted. The track really does allow you to use a lot of rubber, while keeping the spear tracking straight, due to a lack of shaft-whip.

I can de-power it with 2-bands for a holed-up reef shot, use all 3 for blue water or even put a couple of 16mm bands on + a 14mm for tough fish or spooky ones for blue water.

It's my go-to setup for clear water.

A single 20mm band on a 130mm gun might be a bit tough to load. Consider 2 smaller bands - perhaps 2x16mm or even 3x14.

You're probably right. It would be hard. Maybe a 18mm. But 2 16mm's sound good. If one breaks you've got another one. Is an enclosed track the same thing a a rail on a railgun? Sorry for my stupid question, I don't know all technicallities and terms yet! Thanx again.

 

[MozSpearer]

Thanx for reply sharkey! Is the enclosed track gun the same as a railgun(like a rob allen)? The spears on a railgun ride on a film of water. Otherwise one would have noted a lot of wear on the spear and rail.

 

[MozSpearer]

It's a solution to problem which shouldn't exist, if the gun is well made & set up.
If a spear bends to the point it needs to be contained in "an enclosed track" then the friction between the spear & track quickly reduces the extra power.
Look no further than archery equipment. Arrows are much lighter, they travel much faster, they are launched in a medium much less dense than water, & expected to be much much more accurate than spears. Spearguns can be tuned to shoot straight along the same principles, but its much easier to do with spearguns.

Enclosed tracks were popularised by some high profile spearos & in some publications about 20 years ago. It was an over enginered solution to a problem which had already been solved by many primitive cultures many thousands of years ago.

There is few if any advantages from enclosed tracks. Other than a novelty.

On the original question, the major advantage with carbon may be that it requires less care than aluminium in regards to corrosion.

Cheers Sharkey

Here's a quote from Rob Allen website about the track slowing the spear down:
Does the spear resting on the rail not cause friction on the spear and slow it down?
When in the water the rail and spear are both wet. Once the spear gets going it will slide on a thin film of water, which eliminates the possibility of it touching the barrel. A well-used railgun shows no wear in the rail, which it would show if there was significant contact friction. This is similar to the way that a slipper bearing or a beach skimboard work.


Thanks for the info sharkey. Cheers

 

[sharkey]

Thanx for reply sharkey! Is the enclosed track gun the same as a railgun(like a rob allen)? The spears on a railgun ride on a film of water. Otherwise one would have noted a lot of wear on the spear and rail.

An enclosed track is just that, it is basically a tube which captures the spear with only the spears loading tabs protruding from the top of the track.

The quote you have used is correct for a tuned gun/spear combination. This changes when the speargun & spear combination are overpowered by adding more rubbers. An enclosed track is an attempt to control the bend in the spear when the trigger is first slapped. Can you imagine how much energy is wasted trying to push a bent spear down a straight tube? If you are going to overpower the combination then the spear should bend into the rail when fired, rather than up, down left, right or be trapped in a tube. Over powering a gun/spear combination to increase range, is most often counter intuitive as we are always going to see some decrease in accuracy which has a major effect on "effective range"

A gun/spear combination is easy to tune when the power is low, once we start adding rubbers getting the tuning right becomes more critical. The spine or the stiffness of the spear is important, a longer spear of similar diameter to a short one is much less stiff, & more likely to bend when released from the gun. Some times a simple solution to spears bending, is to go up a size, again there is a practical limit to rubber powered guns. I have found that a 10mm or 3/8 shaft is about the practical limit for me to use, with a spear up to 2m in length with four 5/8 rubbers at the most. These guns are accurate, simple & effective for fish to 100kg without the need for an enclosed track. the "rail" is critical though for accuracy. I do have larger guns than this, but they are horrible things to use, & dangerous (risk of broken teeth, nose, face masks & even wrists) none need enclosed tracks to shoot straight. It's much better to work on our fishing skills than try to have a larger gun in many cases, so long as the gun can still get the shaft through the fish.

Another solution that I played with almost 30 years ago to get more energy into a shaft was to reverse the power stroke using the eccentrics from a compound bow mounted near the handle, & cables installed similar to a roller gun. The spear started under 50% power & once moving the full energy was applied. This achieved a few things, it allowed for a thinner shaft, a short stretch/pull (only about 300mm, the rubbers were only about 40mm), & more energy. It was impractical & ugly though & as I've never felt limited by traditional rubber powered guns didn't take it further than just a novelty piece. It is a solution though to get more power into a spear without having to make it thicker & heavier.

Hope I haven't bored you too much?

Cheers Sharkey

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

Many of our customers feel that an enclosed track speargun is quicker to reload than an open track speargun.

Also, the enclosed track barrel of our guns allows the use of an open muzzle. Some people feel that an open muzzle provides better visibility and aiming or sighting of the target. With an open track and an open muzzle, the shooting line needs to be wrapped over the shaft at the muzzle in order to secure the shaft prior to the shot. This entire step is eliminated with an enclosed track because the shaft is secured by the track.

The enclosed track ensures that the shaft leaves the gun straight and that it is not whipping or bending. Many people feel that the enclosed track will allow additional band power to be used. This may be true to a certain extent but the mass of a gun limits the number of bands which are practical (without generating excessive recoil), so the realistic limits for our rail guns are 2 or 3 bands.

The MAKO Spearguns enclosed track barrel incorporates two additional extensions of aluminum which are used to anchor the polymer track. This pipe was designed specifically for our use and is extruded as a "custom" tube. This provides additional rigidity to the barrel.

We have also heard from several customers indicating that they feel that the shaft being cradled in the polymer (enclosed) track also serves to reduce the sound of the gun. We've never quantified this effect, but it is also a potential benefit. The polymer track is resistant to wear, provides a low friction surface and is easily replaceable should it be damaged by accident.

We sell both open track and enclosed track spearguns, however we do not offer any models in CF... we should mention that since the original question pertained to CF versus aluminum.

 

[sharkey]

I guess so long as people "feel" they are getting a better gun because of this novelty then your doing your job, & good luck to you. I'm not connected financially in any way to the spearfishing industry, I'm just sharing my opinions on what I've seen work & fail over the last few decades. I'd like to think that my comments are without bias & please believe me when I say that if you could show to me there is any advantage to me from an enclosed track over the open muzzles without enclosed tracks I use now, I'd buy a dozen guns from you tomorrow.

Cheers Sharkey

 

[MozSpearer]

That picture is exactly what i was looking for. The RA ones only have a rail like an enclosed track. The only difference is that it doesn't enclose the whole spear. Just comes up to about 1 fifth of the spear. So it guides the spear, keeps it straight and prevents wobble. Ive used this type of gun and it's super accurate. SHot a barracuda at the edge of my range, perfect centre shot and the rail doesn't cause any noticable friction or wear. And if I could choose, I would have a open muzzle gun. Easier and quicker to load, easier to aim too. That's what I want. Spear held in place by line. See picture about open muzzle and shallow rail.

 

[MozSpearer]

Many of our customers feel that an enclosed track speargun is quicker to reload than an open track speargun.

Also, the enclosed track barrel of our guns allows the use of an open muzzle. Some people feel that an open muzzle provides better visibility and aiming or sighting of the target. With an open track and an open muzzle, the shooting line needs to be wrapped over the shaft at the muzzle in order to secure the shaft prior to the shot. This entire step is eliminated with an enclosed track because the shaft is secured by the track.

The enclosed track ensures that the shaft leaves the gun straight and that it is not whipping or bending. Many people feel that the enclosed track will allow additional band power to be used. This may be true to a certain extent but the mass of a gun limits the number of bands which are practical (without generating excessive recoil), so the realistic limits for our rail guns are 2 or 3 bands.

The MAKO Spearguns enclosed track barrel incorporates two additional extensions of aluminum which are used to anchor the polymer track. This pipe was designed specifically for our use and is extruded as a "custom" tube. This provides additional rigidity to the barrel.

We have also heard from several customers indicating that they feel that the shaft being cradled in the polymer (enclosed) track also serves to reduce the sound of the gun. We've never quantified this effect, but it is also a potential benefit. The polymer track is resistant to wear, provides a low friction surface and is easily replaceable should it be damaged by accident.

We sell both open track and enclosed track spearguns, however we do not offer any models in CF... we should mention that since the original question pertained to CF versus aluminum.

Thanks for the reply. I must say MAko spearguns are a famous and well reported on make. I agree that a opne muzzle could be a bit more complicated to load than a closed muzzle. I just feel that a carbon fibre RA gun would suit my needs better here where I am in Mozambique. Big gamefish and clear visibility. So a fast and straight-shooting spear is of utmost importance.

In reply to the matter of sound absorbing. The problem isn't neccesarilly the sound of the spear, but the pressure waves caused by the band when shot off. That is why a fast spear is desirable.

I'm not saying Mako spearguns don't offer that, I'm just stating facts. I must say,however, I have considered buying one of your guns. Although your location makes the business of getting it here complicated. That is why I would prefer a Rob Allen CF 1300 gun. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Cheers

 

[MozSpearer]

An enclosed track is just that, it is basically a tube which captures the spear with only the spears loading tabs protruding from the top of the track.

The quote you have used is correct for a tuned gun/spear combination. This changes when the speargun & spear combination are overpowered by adding more rubbers. An enclosed track is an attempt to control the bend in the spear when the trigger is first slapped. Can you imagine how much energy is wasted trying to push a bent spear down a straight tube? If you are going to overpower the combination then the spear should bend into the rail when fired, rather than up, down left, right or be trapped in a tube. Over powering a gun/spear combination to increase range, is most often counter intuitive as we are always going to see some decrease in accuracy which has a major effect on "effective range"

A gun/spear combination is easy to tune when the power is low, once we start adding rubbers getting the tuning right becomes more critical. The spine or the stiffness of the spear is important, a longer spear of similar diameter to a short one is much less stiff, & more likely to bend when released from the gun. Some times a simple solution to spears bending, is to go up a size, again there is a practical limit to rubber powered guns. I have found that a 10mm or 3/8 shaft is about the practical limit for me to use, with a spear up to 2m in length with four 5/8 rubbers at the most. These guns are accurate, simple & effective for fish to 100kg without the need for an enclosed track. the "rail" is critical though for accuracy. I do have larger guns than this, but they are horrible things to use, & dangerous (risk of broken teeth, nose, face masks & even wrists) none need enclosed tracks to shoot straight. It's much better to work on our fishing skills than try to have a larger gun in many cases, so long as the gun can still get the shaft through the fish.

Another solution that I played with almost 30 years ago to get more energy into a shaft was to reverse the power stroke using the eccentrics from a compound bow mounted near the handle, & cables installed similar to a roller gun. The spear started under 50% power & once moving the full energy was applied. This achieved a few things, it allowed for a thinner shaft, a short stretch/pull (only about 300mm, the rubbers were only about 40mm), & more energy. It was impractical & ugly though & as I've never felt limited by traditional rubber powered guns didn't take it further than just a novelty piece. It is a solution though to get more power into a spear without having to make it thicker & heavier.

Hope I haven't bored you too much?

Cheers Sharkey

No. Not at all. Thanks for the info!

 

[MozSpearer]

Anyone else?

 

[Apneaddict]

Sharkey is spot-on re: a tuned / balanced package (rubbers, spear length / thickness and gun).

He's also right about spear small thickness changes making a big difference in strength, and the same thing re: length.

The Rob Allens have a reputation for being a balanced package, no doubt. They are LOVED all over Africa and used successfully all around the world.

It looks like their spear for the 130cm gun is 9/32" or 7mm.

I opted for the 7.5mm spear on my 120cm gun with slightly less overhang.

For me (traveling), I just can't necessarily take extra guns and lots of spares, so more strength / robustness is better.

If I lived near where I speared and I could bring lots of extras and a bent shaft wouldn't ruin a semi-annual trip for me... my choices might be different.

 

[sharkey]

Mate, if your worried about bending shafts, then its another reason to stay clear of enclosed tracks. With an open track it's still possible to shoot a spear that you've had to re straight over your knee in an emergency. The spring stainless & extra diameter of a spear helps prevent this, but I''ve still had my share of large reef fish turn 3/8 shafts into spaghetti (we're not allowed to shoot maori wrasse down here in Oz anymore, but you still can in many countries, & some of our parrots which we can still shoot are over 50kgs, about 30kg is the max now that we can still take cod/grouper at). I shoot heavier or lighter spears based upon the punch, performance & penetration I need, I don't think about their survivability till after the fish is shot. Even a medium sized reef fish can still bend a shaft if it gets some leverage off the reef, no matter if it's 7mm or 10mm without prejudice.

I'm not sure where you travel, but an open track may be better if your targeting medium sized fish rather than relying on an extra .5 of a mm in your spear diameter to keep you fishing with minimal spares.

Cheers Sharkey

 

[MozSpearer]

Sharkey is spot-on re: a tuned / balanced package (rubbers, spear length / thickness and gun).

He's also right about spear small thickness changes making a big difference in strength, and the same thing re: length.

The Rob Allens have a reputation for being a balanced package, no doubt. They are LOVED all over Africa and used successfully all around the world.

It looks like their spear for the 130cm gun is 9/32" or 7mm.

I opted for the 7.5mm spear on my 120cm gun with slightly less overhang.

For me (traveling), I just can't necessarily take extra guns and lots of spares, so more strength / robustness is better.

If I lived near where I speared and I could bring lots of extras and a bent shaft wouldn't ruin a semi-annual trip for me... my choices might be different.

Thnaks apnea!
It depends on the configuration you want. HEre's an extract from the RA website about the carbons and their options:
Rob Allen Carbon Railguns are available in lengths from 70cm to 160cm.

(Code RGSH70 – RGSH160)
Fitted with a 6.6mm spear
and single 16mm band.

(Code RGSU70 – RGSU160)
Fitted with a 7mm spear
and single 20mm band.

(Code RGZL70 – RGZL160)
Fitted with a 7.5mm spear
and twin 16mm bands.

 

[MozSpearer]

Thanks for your reply too sharkey. I agree about the open track and bent spears. I agree that any fish that gets in a cave or between a ledge can bend your spear. Regardless whether its a 2kg parrotfish or a giant maori wrasse, so a thicker spear is better and, on a well balanced and powered gun, will have better penetrating power up to the edge of its range. Thanks a lot all who are responding