Carbon vs Alu.

[snask]

Let's start the battle...
Leaving out the cosmetic appeal. What is better and why.
For the "same" gun sigalsub have 26/28 Alu barrel and 26/30 carbon. That suggest carbon is weaker per thickness or that it's a stronger barrel that can take more power?

 

[Leander]

I say the sea is a hostile environment and anything that needs to be treated with care has no place there. So unless carbon would fare better when handled roughly and being wedged inbetween rocks and smashed into the shore on a wild exit, I would vote for aluminium.

 

[Mr. X]

Definitely carbon for me.

Unlike yours, mine have 25mm barrels - OmerXXV - so slimmer than most modern aluminium barrels. Fast tracking and low mass, low inertia.

The larger diameter of yours might be for greater stiffness when using multiple rubbers and/or to allow the use of thinner walls (but your walls sound fairly thick). But they probably just wanted to get the same internal diameter, so they could use the same handle/trigger mech. My Omers use a specially designed narrow handle/mech the T10, rather than Omer's well regarded T20. Not sure what they did for the Cayman carbon - I believe that also used a 25mm barrel; perhaps they made a special Cayman trigger mech/handle to match? Not sure what diameter the new Invictus Carbon model uses.

 

[snask]

Definitely carbon for me.

Unlike yours, mine have 25mm barrels - OmerXXV - so slimmer than most modern aluminium barrels. Fast tracking and low mass, low inertia.

The larger diameter of yours might be for greater stiffness when using multiple rubbers and/or to allow the use of thinner walls (but your walls sound fairly thick). But they probably just wanted to get the same internal diameter, so they could use the same handle/trigger mech. My Omers use a specially designed narrow handle/mech the T10, rather than Omer's well regarded T20. Not sure what they did for the Cayman carbon - I believe that also used a 25mm barrel; perhaps they made a special Cayman trigger mech/handle to match? Not sure what diameter the new Invictus Carbon model uses.

How thick are the walls of your carbon tube? I've seen some numbers of carbon tubes (not specifically speargun) around 500kg strength for carbon so it should be strong enough for lots of power.

 

[Mr. X]

How thick are the walls of your carbon tube? I've seen some numbers of carbon tubes (not specifically speargun) around 500kg strength for carbon so it should be strong enough for lots of power.

I don't know but I think quite thick. It is tougher and stiffer than I expected. I think most spearguns should have carbon barrels these days - and it should not be expensive.

I gather there have been breakthroughs in the understanding of carbon fibre in the last few years. Some new techniques and products to take greater advantage of its strength.

 

[snask]

I don't know but I think quite thick. It is tougher and stiffer than I expected. I think most spearguns should have carbon barrels these days - and it should not be expensive.

I gather there have been breakthroughs in the understanding of carbon fibre in the last few years. Some new techniques and products to take greater advantage of its strength.

I see it has big tensile strength, torsion strength and stiffness but im not sure about crushing/impact on the tube. About the expensiveness I also think it's overpriced, you can get a round tube for like 40 eu, while a speargun made tube is 3 times as much if you want your tube with a guide rail.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I don't know anything about the specific guns in question, but I used Wong hybrids with carbon barrels for about 20 years and I can't imagine using aluminum. Starting back in the early 1960s I had a lot of guns with aluminum barrels. Aluminum corrodes. Aluminum is easier to bend. The only thing thing aluminum has going for it is the its cheaper.

 

[snask]

I don't know anything about the specific guns in question, but I used Wong hybrids with carbon barrels for about 20 years and I can't imagine using aluminum. Starting back in the early 1960s I had a lot of guns with aluminum barrels. Aluminum corrodes. Aluminum is easier to bend. The only thing thing aluminum has going for it is the its cheaper.

What are the thickness of walls on these strong carbon barrels? And would you say it has as good strength when it comes to crushing/impact right on the barrel?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I'm afraid I don't know the wall thickness, although I do recall Daryl Wong saying it was thicker than on a lot of the European guns. But it was very crush resistant, much more so than aluminum. I've seen weight belts dropped on the guns. Donsens of this guns are ink use in Southern California, and I've never heard of a crushed barrel.

 

[Leander]

But it was very crush resistant, much more so than aluminum. I've seen weight belts dropped on the guns.

Interesting. I'm still haunted by those videos of bicycle tracks racer's front wheels disintegrating at high speed, but I guess carbon came a long way since then. I see it's now also being used as structural material in some airliners?

Perhaps if someone has some left over carbon tubing from a DIY or shortening a gun, we could do some crushing tests.

 

[hteas]

One difference is that carbon fiber breaks are sudden and catastrophic, while aluminum usually shows signs of stress before serious bending or breaking

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I just checked with Daryl Wong. He says the wall of his carbon fiber tube is 1/8”/3.175 mm. He hasn’t heard of anyone breaking it.

 

[Leander]

So with carbon you won't ever doubt if the barrel is bent, as it would be shatterred? That actually does sound like an advantage.

Just checked MVD's site, as that's the brand I got here. They did make their invert roller with a carbon barrel at some point, but it seems to be removed from their shop, just alu now.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

So with carbon you won't ever doubt if the barrel is bent, as it would be shatterred? That actually does sound like an advantage.

Just checked MVD's site, as that's the brand I got here. They did make their invert roller with a carbon barrel at some point, but it seems to be removed from their shop, just alu now.

And if it did shatter it would be replaced under warranty if it was a Wong gun, but course that’s exceptional. No one else has a warranty like Daryl. Before he started using carbon fiber barrels in his hybrid guns he used titanium. After about 10 years my titanium barrel slid out of wood butt so he replaced it with carbon fiber. He said it seemed to happening in Southern California and he thought it must be because the cold water caused the titanium to expand and contract. But whatever the cause he just replaced them under warranty. When I texted him he was out fishing but he said he’s send me a photo of the carbon fiber tubing next to titanium tonight.

 

[Leander]

Nice, that's the kind of service every company should offer. But he obviously uses quality materials. Would Omer, MVD or even Decathlon use the same? Probably not. So how would a quality Wong barrel compare to a made-in-China from a mass producing brand?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I have no idea where he gets his barrels. Maybe from a different source in China that sells thicker tubing but he stands behind everything he sells. Of course he isn’t a mass producer. By day he is a dentist in Honolulu. He makes every gun himself with no one else in the shop. He makes less than 100 guns per year and sells directly to each customer with no shops in between. Buying from him is like buying a friend. You consult with him directly about your needs and then deal directly with him if you need parts or have questions. That’s very different from dealing with a shop.

His warranty is almost legendary. My first test was amazing. When I get back to the boat I clip my gun (and fish if I’m lucky) to lines hanging over the side and then pull them up after I get in. One time I forgot to pull the gun in and when we were pulling anchor the bands went through the prop, tore the muzzle off the barrel and destroyed the trigger mechanism. I emailed him to order a mechanism and he asked why I needed one. When I confessed to a senior moment he said that was warranted and sent me a mechanism at no cost. That’s ridiculous but it may also be cost effective in the long run. I’ve probably told that story at least 20 times on social media and I’m sure it’s good advertising.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Daryl sent me this photo of his carbon fiber tube compared to his titanium tube. He hasn't offered titanium for years so this must be a relic from when he was switching over. I'm not sure if wall thickness is a meaningful comparison since they are different materials but at least it shows that the carbon fiber looks pretty thick.

 

[snask]

Daryl sent me this photo of his carbon fiber tube compared to his titanium tube. He hasn't offered titanium for years so this must be a relic from when he was switching over. I'm not sure if wall thickness is a meaningful comparison since they are different materials but at least it shows that the carbon fiber looks pretty thick.

Im a bit confused, those numbers are very small for tubes? Normally tubes around 1.2 inches 28mm.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Im a bit confused, those numbers are very small for tubes? Normally tubes around 1.2 inches 28mm.

Wasn't aware of that since I don't have any pipe guns but maybe its because his tubes are the front half of a hybrid with a wood butt?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Now that I think about it, he does use a thicker tube in the Super Magnums that use four 16mm bands. I've used three 16 mm bands in the guns with smaller tubes and never noticed any flex.