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cardiovascualr fitness?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
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Rifmaniac,

After doing a breath-hold FRC dynamic my heart rate will soar to 150 or more during recovery (while in the ocean), and this heart rate is in the so-called 'aerobic' zone, but it is clearly not aerobic exercise.

To clear up the terminology, I would say that any exercise which involves a high sustained heart rate, while breathing 100% of the time, is in the category of exercise which produces 'aerobic' adapations. Whereas any exercise which involves periods of breath-holding (regardless of heart rate), would tend to produce more anaerobic adapations.
 
I think Rifmaniac is trying to say that at an increased heart rate you are stressing the cardiovascular system, therefore performing cardio, irregardless of whether you are undergoing aerobic or anaerobic adaptations and techniques.
 
Eric, I found a contradiction in what you say.
According to you, for heavy cardio, your blood must not be too viscous.
Then you say that the higher the hematocrit the higher the viscosity of the blood.
Then you say that best cyclers (heavy cardio people) have the highest hematocrit ratio, so the highest viscosity of blood....
.... so there is something I don't understand...
Maybe I misunderstood something.
 
OceanMan said:
Eric, I found a contradiction in what you say.
According to you, for heavy cardio, your blood must not be too viscous.
Then you say that the higher the hematocrit the higher the viscosity of the blood.
Then you say that best cyclers (heavy cardio people) have the highest hematocrit ratio, so the highest viscosity of blood....
.... so there is something I don't understand...
Maybe I misunderstood something.
I don't think you did find a contradiction in what was said, although in how you comprehended and reconveyed it maybe.

Heavy cardio requires blood to not be too viscous, meaning there is a peak level of hematocrit supporting heavy cardio. The higher the hematocrit the higher the viscosity. The best cyclers have their peak level at 50% being the max seen generally in aerobic atheletes.

So, everything is consistent. The cyclers peak at the highest viscosity level that still allows as much haemoglobin as possible while allowing good cardiovascular operations; essentially the optimal efficiency point between too opposing variables viscosity vs. haemoglobin. If you want a higher hematocrit for some reason then you have to drop in your level of cardio ability because the viscosity would be too high.
 
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Tyler explained it well.

For breathing exercise, it would appear that a hematocrit of 50% produces the ideal ratio of oxygen delivery to viscosity. Higher than 50%, and the increased oxygen delivery of the 'thick' blood doesn't offset the greater difficulty in pumping the blood.
 
Eric,

I can feel your reborn enthusiasm for diving jumping out of the page with your focused FRC direction. All the best to you with your training and performances using "the dark side of the force" :) I was ragging Seb about seducing people to the dark side just yesterday.
 
Also note that if the diver uses a lot of packing that having increased hemoglobin becomes less important. For FRC diving the blood is a large amount of your total O2 store so is critical. I did some approximations on blood and lung useable O2 stores on myself. I got :-

With max packing - 2.36 O2 total and .6 from blood, ratio 3.93:1
With FRC - 1.24 O2 total and .6 from blood, ratio 2.07:1

So in this example you can see if the blood O2 stores increase by %10 in the case of maxpacking it doesnt make any where near as much difference as it would with FRC.


Below is how I got my approximations, don't jump on me for my calculations, was just to give an idea :)

Looking at useable oxygen assume :- Max = %50 Sao2 and %5 PaO2 (theoretical BO level)
%21 O2 in normal air

11 litres TLC with packing
11 * (.21 - .05) = 1.76 litres useable O2 in Lungs

4 litres FRC
4 * (.21-.05) = .64 litres useable O2 in Lungs

Approximation, average human has 4-5 litres of blood, can store 1 litre of O2 in 5 litres blood, %50 useable.
I will say for me 6 litres of blood, 1.2 litre of O2, 600ml useable

So with max packing you get 2.36 O2 total and .6 comes from the blood.
FRC you get 1.24 O2 total and .6 comes from the blood

Cheers,
Wal
 
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What I meant with this example was that if using FRC training/diving then the no-cardio aproach is probably very important. A diver using packing is in a different ball game, so may be for optimum perfomance there is more of a trade off between fitness, raised dive reflex, raised hemoglobin etc. For those that compete you would also want to look at an all round training aproach for Static + Constant + Dynamic. (Dynamic will now count as points for world team championships, and regular comps)
 
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Interesting points Wal. It seems from the posts that the cyclists(heaps of money in that sport) have been able to determine the ideal Hermacrit/cardio balance for their sport and I bet even they have variations for track vs road athletes as well. We may with time discover the freediving balance point and your comments equally point to a variation on these for inhale & packing vs frc approaches given the relative percentages of O2 stores.
 
ADR said:
It seems from the posts that the cyclists(heaps of money in that sport) have been able to determine the ideal Hermacrit/cardio balance for their sport and I bet even they have variations for track vs road athletes as well. We may with time discover the freediving balance point and your comments equally point to a variation on these for inhale & packing vs frc approaches given the relative percentages of O2 stores.
I don't think it was intended to suggest that these atheletes attempted to adjust their routine for the end levels of hematocrit. Instead I feel the suggestion that the peak hematocrit levels are a consequence of max cardio. The body found and limited the effective point, not the money or knowledge base. In their cases most of the benefits are purely from stress training under the end conditions of the activity. For us, Eric and Sebastian seem to be seeing the same results, being that practicing FRC time and time again, the body adapts to something totally different than max cardio training would assist.
 
I think we have to remember that the focus is on training specificity. Bodies given the corresponding nutrients may adapt to an activity as long as that activity is repetitively stressed to the body. The intentions of the participant is to support those needs while acting upon training specificity. So, what we are seeing is people who are discovering the variables that the body requires to support its adaptations. Inhale is tricky because it is too similar to many other activities we are already adapted to, to really stress the body into a different form of adaptation. Whereas exhale immediately subjects us to a more profound stress being the suggested reason the blood findings are so radically different.
 
Tyler, I understand however feel that in the cyclists case it is more controlled/planned than that. Cyclists use altitude training techniques and blood monitoring moreso than most sports do.
 
Wal is certainly right, that if you dive with full packing, your blood is far less important. As an example, when I did the 82m CW WR in 2001 I was anemic with Hb = 13 g/dl. Yasemin Dalkilic has sickle cell anemia and has even lower hemoglobin...

However, when comparing oxygen stored in lungs vs. blood, for diving, remember that O2 stored in the lungs experiences buoyancy change, and therefore has less 'value' than O2 stored in the blood, which doesn't experience buoyancy change.

For example, starting at the 'baseline' level of 5 litres of blood at 14 g/dl hemoglobin, and increasing that to 6 litres of blood at 21 g/dl hemoglobin, you gain an extra

5L @ 14 g/dl = 938ml O2
6L @ 21 g/dl = 1688.4 ml O2
the difference is 1688.4 - 938 = 750.4 ml O2
air is 20-21% O2, but even after ventilation your lungs never hold more than 17% O2 (because of the CO2 in your lungs).
So, an extra 750ml O2, converted into air at 17% O2 gives 4.41L.

So, by improving your blood with the intense 'no aerobic exercise' method, the increased O2 in your blood is equivalent to an increase in lung capacity of 4.41L, WITHOUT any increase in buoyancy nor buoyancy change.

Taking an extra 4.41L of 'real' air in the lungs, would result in an extra 4.41kg of buoyancy at the surface, resulting in far greater effort to get down. Whereas an extra 4.41L of 'air' equivalent, in the blood, results in no greater effort to get down.

Keep in mind that at rest (for example: static), you burn about 250 ml O2 per minute, sometimes as low as 200. So an extra 750ml of O2 is an extra three minutes of static time....or more.

Here is an even more interesting calculation:

1. Diver with full packing
Blood O2 = 938ml O2 (calculated above)
Lung O2 = assume 9L VC with packing, 2L residual = 11L @ 17% O2 = 1870 ml O2
Total O2 store (not including creatine/myglobin) = 2808 ml O2

2. FRC diver with high blood quality
Blood O2 = 1688 ml O2
Lung O2 = assume 4L VC + 2L residual = 6L @ 17% O2 = 1020 ml O2
Total O2 store (not including creatine/myoglobin) = 2708 ml O2

So, the two divers have ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME oxygen store, except that the FRC diver sinks the whole way down and experiences a higher blood shift, meaning the arms and legs will use less O2 from the core supply on the ascent. Further, the FRC diver can do his max depth over and over and over, one after the other, for training, while the inhale+packing diver can only do one max per day, for DCS reasons.

Also, the FRC diver experiences a dramatically reduced pressure gradient in the end of the dive, since the lungs don't expand nearly as much in the last 15m. This means, from both theory and practice, that there isn't that sudden feeling of hypoxia and fading vision in the end of the dive, compared to inhale +packing dives.

Although I still go to competitions, my main goal is to be able to do repetitive 60-65m 'fun' dives to go and see things and enjoy the ocean (with as short as possible surface interval between dives). So for me the FRC path is the only choice (for DCS reasons). But, each person can choose their own path.
 
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Hi Eric,
if you do a full exhale, then inhale of %21-%20 O2 how can your lung O2 instantly be at %17 ?
I would assume with ventilating prior to a dive the RV of air left in the lungs would have been 'refreshed' also.
 
Just one other thing, I was looking at useable O2, not total O2. At %50 SaO2 you are at blackout level so you can only use half of your blood O2 store. It would seem you can use more of your lung O2 store, except your %17 PaO2 make this somewhat lower.
 
Well I meant theoretical blackout for most people is %50 SaO2, and from what I've heard %5 PaO2. To work out actual values will vary for everyone, I'm not going to be a test subject... :) :duh
 
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