Challenging the dairy / mucus link...?

[adrian.u]

Hi all!

I suffer from a regularly occuring difficulty in equalising my right ear. The way it tends to show up is that after a few duck dives (sometimes including just small ones in the local pool) I suddenly find that my right ear will feel completely 'blocked' when I try to equalise (while left ear equalises fine), and it takes a few minutes (3 or 4) staying upright on the surface before it starts to clear up. Equalising then often feels 'squidgy' & 'bubbly' in the eustachian tube for a few more minutes after that, a bit like trying to blow through a mostly blocked nostril, but improving over time.

I don't find that it's a particularly big issue for me because it tends to happen only once or twice during an hour or so of diving (or pool swimming, practicing some duck dives), and I know the drill well enough to just wait a few mins until it clears before trying again.

I also suffer from something that sounds rather like a post-nasal drip - a near constant feeling that there is 'stuff' stuck in the back of the throat - and have to regularly swallow to try to get rid of it (often unsuccessfully even after multiple attempts).

My working hypothesis is that the above two things are linked - i.e. some of the mucus that ends up getting stuck in my throat can make its way instead into the eustachian tube of my right ear (never left ear, so presumably some difference in structure somewhere in there), assisted by gravity when upside-down during (duck-)dives.


I've regularly heard freedivers say that cutting out dairy will reduce mucus, and therefore helps to reduce any such problems with equalisation. (And the whole milk --> mucus idea has been around for centuries, of course.)

Consequently, over the past year I've been running some experiments to see if avoiding dairy makes any difference for myself.

I started around this time last year, and had practically zero dairy for about four months (only rarely a splash of milk in tea the odd time away visiting someone when there's nothing else available). I then went back to full-on dairy for another four months. Since then I've repeated the zero dairy up until now (i.e. another four months).


Given how common this non-dairy thing is mentioned by freedivers, I was really hoping this would make a noticeable difference. However the bottom line is that I've not noticed any change at all...


Looking through some actual research related to this does suggest that it could be mostly a myth (apart from certain individuals who do actually have some degree of real allergy). For example...

Milk Consumption Does Not Lead to Mucus Production or Occurrence of Asthma

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2005.10719503

Relationship between Milk Intake and Mucus Production in Adult Volunteers Challenged with Rhinovirus-2

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1164/ajrccm/141.2.352

The milk mucus belief: sensations associated with the belief and characteristics of believers

The milk mucus belief: sensations associated with the belief and characteristics of believers - PubMed

The belief that milk produces mucus is widespread in the community and is associated with a significant reduction in milk consumption. Sensations associated with milk drinking were reported by otherwise healthy believers and non-believers in the milk-mucus effect (N = 169) in an unstructured...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The milk-mucus belief: sensory analysis comparing cow's milk and a soy placebo

The milk-mucus belief: sensory analysis comparing cow's milk and a soy placebo - PubMed

A questionnaire designed to measure the "milk mucus effect" was based on sensations and symptoms after drinking milk reported in interviews with 169 individuals, 70 of whom held the belief that milk produces mucus. This was used to measure responses in a randomized, double-blind trial of a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Does milk increase mucus production?

Does milk increase mucus production? - PubMed

Excessive milk consumption has a long association with increased respiratory tract mucus production and asthma. Such an association cannot be explained using a conventional allergic paradigm and there is limited medical evidence showing causality. In the human colon, beta-casomorphin-7...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Wondering if anyone here has any personal experience about any of this, and would like to comment...?

 

[PreTzeL]

Hey Aidrian,

I’ve dealt with post-nasal drip too, and for me, it’s linked to some other food intolerances. I avoid gluten, bananas, and cashew nuts, which seems to help. I don’t recall dairy being a major trigger (compared) when I used to dine from the bovine nipple. Also Neti pots are amazingly helpful- and more so on diving days.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
 Richard

---

Does this feel more in line with what you wanted?

 

[PreTzeL]

Ps sorry for spelling your name incorrectly! I didn't notice the typo until after I posted. Can we edit posts on here?

 

[adrian.u]

Hey Aidrian,

I’ve dealt with post-nasal drip too, and for me, it’s linked to some other food intolerances. I avoid gluten, bananas, and cashew nuts, which seems to help. I don’t recall dairy being a major trigger (compared) when I used to dine from the bovine nipple. Also Neti pots are amazingly helpful- and more so on diving days.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
 Richard

---

Does this feel more in line with what you wanted?

Yes - thanks for the info! I eat bananas regularly (-good source of potassium, according to The Doctor...), and I don't avoid gluten, so maybe I'll try experimenting there for a bit.
I've never noticed any kind of gluten intolerance, but looking around the (more reliable parts of the) web a bit, there does seem to be some suggestion that it's possible to have some level of allergy without being intolerant - but there also seems to be some confusion over "intolerance" (digestion) vs "allergy" (immune system), so...

I have a nasal rinse system, but have to admit that I've not particularly enjoyed using it. And when I did, it felt like it wasn't quite making a difference as far back as needed (right to the back of the nasal cavity and into the throat). TBH, I also didn't notice that much difference (certainly not short-term, anyway, using it for a few days before/during diving/training, etc.) - but I should try a more long-term experiment.

Thanks again!

EDIT: yes, it's possible to edit posts - but maybe only for a certain amount of time after posting? (I can't edit my original post above, for example.)
EDIT2: on the bottom-left of the post there are buttons "Report", "Edit", "Delete".

 

[PreTzeL]

I am more gluten intolerant than celiac disease. Sadly now I have to avoid it completely as it gives me a headache. Although I can manage OK with a little cross contamination - porridge oats for example are usually milled in the same places as wheat, or wheat grows in adjacent fields and ends up mixed in to some degree. But before I avoided gluten completely I noticed the connection between eating a huge pizza (with a delicious garlic bread) and waking up and feeling congested with a gacky throat. These days since I don't have such a problem anymore I more easily notice the connection with other foods. If you're going to exclude stuff it does take a few days to a week or so to really clear the effects.

I guess because I'm an infrequent user and with not many posts under my belt. I cannot edit stuff I've recently written.

Good luck with your experiments.

 

[deblaincovsnig]

Hi all!

I suffer from a regularly occuring difficulty in equalising my right ear. The way it tends to show up is that after a few duck dives (sometimes including just small ones in the local pool) I suddenly find that my right ear will feel completely 'blocked' when I try to equalise (while left ear equalises fine), and it takes a few minutes (3 or 4) staying upright on the surface before it starts to clear up. Equalising then often feels 'squidgy' & 'bubbly' in the eustachian tube for a few more minutes after that, a bit like trying to blow through a mostly blocked nostril, but improving over time.

I don't find that it's a particularly big issue for me because it tends to happen only once or twice during an hour or so of diving (or pool swimming, practicing some duck dives), and I know the drill well enough to just wait a few mins until it clears before trying again.

I also suffer from something that sounds rather like a post-nasal drip - a near constant feeling that there is 'stuff' stuck in the back of the throat - and have to regularly swallow to try to get rid of it (often unsuccessfully even after multiple attempts).

My working hypothesis is that the above two things are linked - i.e. some of the mucus that ends up getting stuck in my throat can make its way instead into the eustachian tube of my right ear (never left ear, so presumably some difference in structure somewhere in there), assisted by gravity when upside-down during (duck-)dives.


I've regularly heard freedivers say that cutting out dairy will reduce mucus, and therefore helps to reduce any such problems with equalisation. (And the whole milk --> mucus idea has been around for centuries, of course.)

Consequently, over the past year I've been running some experiments to see if avoiding dairy makes any difference for myself.

I started around this time last year, and had practically zero dairy for about four months (only rarely a splash of milk in tea the odd time away visiting someone when there's nothing else available). I then went back to full-on dairy for another four months. Since then I've repeated the zero dairy up until now (i.e. another four months).


Given how common this non-dairy thing is mentioned by freedivers, I was really hoping this would make a noticeable difference. However the bottom line is that I've not noticed any change at all...


Looking through some actual research related to this does suggest that it could be mostly a myth (apart from certain individuals who do actually have some degree of real allergy). For example...

Milk Consumption Does Not Lead to Mucus Production or Occurrence of Asthma

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2005.10719503

Relationship between Milk Intake and Mucus Production in Adult Volunteers Challenged with Rhinovirus-2

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1164/ajrccm/141.2.352

The milk mucus belief: sensations associated with the belief and characteristics of believers

The milk mucus belief: sensations associated with the belief and characteristics of believers - PubMed

The belief that milk produces mucus is widespread in the community and is associated with a significant reduction in milk consumption. Sensations associated with milk drinking were reported by otherwise healthy believers and non-believers in the milk-mucus effect (N = 169) in an unstructured...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The milk-mucus belief: sensory analysis comparing cow's milk and a soy placebo
[URL https://mlymenus.com/mr-tuk-tuk-menu/[/URL]

Does milk increase mucus production?

Does milk increase mucus production? - PubMed

Excessive milk consumption has a long association with increased respiratory tract mucus production and asthma. Such an association cannot be explained using a conventional allergic paradigm and there is limited medical evidence showing causality. In the human colon, beta-casomorphin-7...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Wondering if anyone here has any personal experience about any of this, and would like to comment...?

The link between dairy consumption and mucus production has been a topic of debate for many years. While some people believe that dairy products, particularly milk, increase mucus production and worsen respiratory conditions, scientific evidence on this issue is not conclusive. Research suggests that while dairy may thicken saliva, giving a sensation of increased mucus, it does not actually cause the body to produce more mucus.

 

[cdavis]

Hi all!

I suffer from a regularly occuring difficulty in equalising my right ear. The way it tends to show up is that after a few duck dives (sometimes including just small ones in the local pool) I suddenly find that my right ear will feel completely 'blocked' when I try to equalise (while left ear equalises fine), and it takes a few minutes (3 or 4) staying upright on the surface before it starts to clear up. Equalising then often feels 'squidgy' & 'bubbly' in the eustachian tube for a few more minutes after that, a bit like trying to blow through a mostly blocked nostril, but improving over time.

I don't find that it's a particularly big issue for me because it tends to happen only once or twice during an hour or so of diving (or pool swimming, practicing some duck dives), and I know the drill well enough to just wait a few mins until it clears before trying again.

I also suffer from something that sounds rather like a post-nasal drip - a near constant feeling that there is 'stuff' stuck in the back of the throat - and have to regularly swallow to try to get rid of it (often unsuccessfully even after multiple attempts).

My working hypothesis is that the above two things are linked - i.e. some of the mucus that ends up getting stuck in my throat can make its way instead into the eustachian tube of my right ear (never left ear, so presumably some difference in structure somewhere in there), assisted by gravity when upside-down during (duck-)dives.


I've regularly heard freedivers say that cutting out dairy will reduce mucus, and therefore helps to reduce any such problems with equalisation. (And the whole milk --> mucus idea has been around for centuries, of course.)

Consequently, over the past year I've been running some experiments to see if avoiding dairy makes any difference for myself.

I started around this time last year, and had practically zero dairy for about four months (only rarely a splash of milk in tea the odd time away visiting someone when there's nothing else available). I then went back to full-on dairy for another four months. Since then I've repeated the zero dairy up until now (i.e. another four months).


Given how common this non-dairy thing is mentioned by freedivers, I was really hoping this would make a noticeable difference. However the bottom line is that I've not noticed any change at all...


Looking through some actual research related to this does suggest that it could be mostly a myth (apart from certain individuals who do actually have some degree of real allergy). For example...

Milk Consumption Does Not Lead to Mucus Production or Occurrence of Asthma

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2005.10719503

Relationship between Milk Intake and Mucus Production in Adult Volunteers Challenged with Rhinovirus-2

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1164/ajrccm/141.2.352

The milk mucus belief: sensations associated with the belief and characteristics of believers

The milk mucus belief: sensations associated with the belief and characteristics of believers - PubMed

The belief that milk produces mucus is widespread in the community and is associated with a significant reduction in milk consumption. Sensations associated with milk drinking were reported by otherwise healthy believers and non-believers in the milk-mucus effect (N = 169) in an unstructured...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The milk-mucus belief: sensory analysis comparing cow's milk and a soy placebo

The milk-mucus belief: sensory analysis comparing cow's milk and a soy placebo - PubMed

A questionnaire designed to measure the "milk mucus effect" was based on sensations and symptoms after drinking milk reported in interviews with 169 individuals, 70 of whom held the belief that milk produces mucus. This was used to measure responses in a randomized, double-blind trial of a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Does milk increase mucus production?

Does milk increase mucus production? - PubMed

Excessive milk consumption has a long association with increased respiratory tract mucus production and asthma. Such an association cannot be explained using a conventional allergic paradigm and there is limited medical evidence showing causality. In the human colon, beta-casomorphin-7...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Wondering if anyone here has any personal experience about any of this, and would like to comment...?

Hi Adrian,

I would not be at all surprised to find that much of the milk/mucus relation is placebo effect. However, sometimes it is very real.
A buddy of mine developed a bad lung bleed/ inability to equalize much below 30 ft. After trying many things with zero or limited success, he discovered that dairy was the problem. Avoid dairy for three days before a dive and the problem was gone. He tested and retested before he was sure.

In your case, you are probably right that the drip and equalization are linked. Try Flonase. Its similar to cortizone but much less powerful and is 'over the counter" in the US. Works well for me.

 

[adrian.u]

Hi Adrian,

I would not be at all surprised to find that much of the milk/mucus relation is placebo effect.

It does seem to be one of those things I hear again and again amongst freedivers.

However, sometimes it is very real.
A buddy of mine developed a bad lung bleed/ inability to equalize much below 30 ft.

That's curious - I've not heard of a link with 'lung bleed' before, only mucus leading to eq difficulties. (By 'lung bleed' I assume you're referring to some kind of squeezing?)
And this happened regularly? Even when diving so shallow? (Or was that just the depth where the eq issues started?)
Was it maybe the struggle to eq that was leading to the inability to relax, and so perhaps then moving and tensing diaphragm/chest muscles in some way (for eq? -Valsalva??) that led to stresses on the lungs...? (But surely that'd have to be at least 20m or so to be approaching RV of lungs? Unless maybe doing some RV/FRC dives...?)
The link with lung squeeze raises so many questions in my mind about how this worked!

After trying many things with zero or limited success, he discovered that dairy was the problem. Avoid dairy for three days before a dive and the problem was gone. He tested and retested before he was sure.

OK, interesting - I guess if there are some people who are affected in this kind of way, that could explain how the connection can get established as a more general 'rule'...

In your case, you are probably right that the drip and equalization are linked. Try Flonase. Its similar to cortizone but much less powerful and is 'over the counter" in the US. Works well for me.

I've been wondering about trying some kind of medication, but it's not usually been a big enough issue for me to want to go down that route unnecessarily.
Do you use it most of the time, or just a few days before diving? Or maybe even only on the day or day before?

Thanks for the info!

Adrian

 

[cdavis]

It does seem to be one of those things I hear again and again amongst freedivers.


That's curious - I've not heard of a link with 'lung bleed' before, only mucus leading to eq difficulties. (By 'lung bleed' I assume you're referring to some kind of squeezing?)
And this happened regularly? Even when diving so shallow? (Or was that just the depth where the eq issues started?)
Was it maybe the struggle to eq that was leading to the inability to relax, and so perhaps then moving and tensing diaphragm/chest muscles in some way (for eq? -Valsalva??) that led to stresses on the lungs...? (But surely that'd have to be at least 20m or so to be approaching RV of lungs? Unless maybe doing some RV/FRC dives...?)
The link with lung squeeze raises so many questions in my mind about how this worked!


OK, interesting - I guess if there are some people who are affected in this kind of way, that could explain how the connection can get established as a more general 'rule'...


I've been wondering about trying some kind of medication, but it's not usually been a big enough issue for me to want to go down that route unnecessarily.
Do you use it most of the time, or just a few days before diving? Or maybe even only on the day or day before?

Thanks for the info!

Adrian

My buddies lung bleed issue was exactly like a lung squeeze, except for the crazy shallow depth. It was definitely an odd-ball reaction that kept getting shallower over time. Also became more and more common until it was was every dive.. We theorized that a section of his lung was getting cut off for air and suffering a localized squeeze. He was nt aware of any mucos issues with the dairy, but getting rid of dairy seemed to remove whatever was causing the localized restriction and he was fine. He had no issues that I remember with equalizing his ears. We are doing a Belize trip together in December. I'l give you an update.

My Flonase use is every day, drip makes me crazy. The drip does not seem to affect my equalization much.

 

[adrian.u]

My buddies lung bleed issue was exactly like a lung squeeze, except for the crazy shallow depth. It was definitely an odd-ball reaction that kept getting shallower over time. Also became more and more common until it was was every dive.. We theorized that a section of his lung was getting cut off for air and suffering a localized squeeze. He was nt aware of any mucos issues with the dairy, but getting rid of dairy seemed to remove whatever was causing the localized restriction and he was fine. He had no issues that I remember with equalizing his ears. We are doing a Belize trip together in December. I'l give you an update.

This would really happened at only ~10m? If not diving FRC/RV (and I'm assuming not) then it doesn't sound like it could be a proper 'squeeze', since the volume can't be getting any lower than from a normal exhale...?? (And I'd assume he didn't see the same when simply breathing out...)

The only real difference I can see between tidal exhale on the surface vs diving to ~10m on full lungs would be the pressure. Did he ever do any scuba? -that would give an interesting indication since it'd lead to only the pressure increase without any chance of squeeze due to lower volume...

If the symptoms were of a typical lung squeeze (rather than trachea, though that'd also be similarly odd), then I'm not sure what to make of it. -And esp. the dairy link... I'd be tempted to try to get some kind of scan to see if there's something very unusual going on in there...?

My Flonase use is every day, drip makes me crazy. The drip does not seem to affect my equalization much.

Doesn't affect my left ear, only right... - so yeah, clearly some weird difference going on there too. Would like to get an ENT to take a look some time (but having the time, and finding a good one who knows about diving, as well as it not usually being a big enough issue for me so far...)

 

[cdavis]

This would really happened at only ~10m? If not diving FRC/RV (and I'm assuming not) then it doesn't sound like it could be a proper 'squeeze', since the volume can't be getting any lower than from a normal exhale...?? (And I'd assume he didn't see the same when simply breathing out...)

The only real difference I can see between tidal exhale on the surface vs diving to ~10m on full lungs would be the pressure. Did he ever do any scuba? -that would give an interesting indication since it'd lead to only the pressure increase without any chance of squeeze due to lower volume...

If the symptoms were of a typical lung squeeze (rather than trachea, though that'd also be similarly odd), then I'm not sure what to make of it. -And esp. the dairy link... I'd be tempted to try to get some kind of scan to see if there's something very unusual going on in there...?


Doesn't affect my left ear, only right... - so yeah, clearly some weird difference going on there too. Would like to get an ENT to take a look some time (but having the time, and finding a good one who knows about diving, as well as it not usually being a big enough issue for me so far...)

Yeah, the depth stumped us too, still does. How could it be what it looked like ( bloody squeeze ) at such a shallow depth? it did not present like a trachea squeeze, but is sure wasn't a normal lung squeeze, either. The only thing that seemed to make sense was involvement of a small area of the lung. We tried stretching, which helped a little and some other things ( I don't remember what) that did not help at all. Dairy did not occur to us because he had no mucus issues he was aware of. He tried dairy out of desperation. We were both astonished when it worked and did not quite believe it until he had tested it a bunch. He started out with several weeks of no dairy and slowly decreased the time till he started feeling symptoms, about 2 days. 3 days seemed to work every time. Then on and off till he was sure it was dairy.

 

[adrian.u]

Yeah, the depth stumped us too, still does. How could it be what it looked like ( bloody squeeze ) at such a shallow depth? it did not present like a trachea squeeze, but is sure wasn't a normal lung squeeze, either...

I came across the following, which sounded like it could be somewhat similar:

Swimming-Induced Pulmonary Edema​

https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(15)31149-1/fulltext

The main thing with above, though, is that it seems to be largely coming from physical exertion...?
(And the dairy link adds a whole other level of curious confusion...)

 

[cdavis]

I came across the following, which sounded like it could be somewhat similar:

Swimming-Induced Pulmonary Edema​

https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(15)31149-1/fulltext

The main thing with above, though, is that it seems to be largely coming from physical exertion...?
(And the dairy link adds a whole other level of curious confusion...)

That is probably not on point, but thanks for looking. My buddy is a pretty intense, long distance cycler(by my wimpy standards), but has an EXTREMELY lazy diving style. He likes to lay on the bottom and chill. Going up and down causes a little exertion, but he moves slow and doesn't exert much even then. Conceivably it could be related to aspirating water from the snorkel, but my buddy is a long time, very experienced diver who isn't likely to be aspirating water, nor would that have changed with dairy use.

We kicked around lots of ideas like this and could only come up with the idea that only a small section of the lung was being affected., no idea if that was correct.

 

[loius0044]

Yes - thanks for the info! I eat bananas regularly (-good source of potassium, according to The Doctor...), and I don't avoid gluten, so maybe I'll try experimenting there for a bit.
I've never noticed any kind of gluten intolerance, but looking around the (more reliable parts of the) web a bit, there does seem to be some suggestion that it's possible to have some level of allergy without being intolerant - but there also seems to be some confusion over "intolerance" (digestion) vs "allergy" (immune system), so...

I have a nasal rinse system, but have to admit that I've not particularly enjoyed using it. And when I did, it felt like it wasn't quite making a difference as far back as needed (right to the back of the nasal cavity and into the throat). TBH, I also didn't notice that much difference (certainly not short-term, anyway, using it for a few days before/during diving/training, etc.) - but I should try a more long-term experiment.

Thanks again!

EDIT: yes, it's possible to edit posts - but maybe only for a certain amount of time after posting? (I can't edit my original post above, for example.)
EDIT2: on the bottom-left of the post Wendy's kids meal there are buttons "Report", "Edit", "Delete".

The connection between dairy consumption and mucus production has been debated for years. Many people believe that dairy products, especially milk, increase mucus production and aggravate respiratory conditions. However, scientific evidence remains inconclusive. Research indicates that while dairy may thicken saliva, leading to a sensation of more mucus, it does not actually cause the body to produce excess mucus.

 

[cdavis]

The connection between dairy consumption and mucus production has been debated for years. Many people believe that dairy products, especially milk, increase mucus production and aggravate respiratory conditions. However, scientific evidence remains inconclusive. Research indicates that while dairy may thicken saliva, leading to a sensation of more mucus, it does not actually cause the body to produce excess mucus.

Interesting aside: I've never noticed any affect of dairy on mucus production, thick saliva or any other negative impact. It seems to have no effect on my diving. For a year or so I've been off dairy for other reasons and just started picking it back up. Cheese seems to have no impact, but when I started drinking milk, immediately I started snoring in sleep positions that had no issue in the past. I was unaware of the change, but my wife was very aware and not pleased. Snoring went back to normal when I stopped drinking milk.