Chlorine

[naiad]

I started a thread about chlorine and teeth, but it soon became clear that it is possible to suffer more ill effects from chlorine exposure in pools. I have had a lot of chest trouble for the last year, and after doing a few Google searches, I found several reliable sources which describe symptoms like mine, caused by chronic chlorine and other volatile chemical exposure in pools.

I have described the chest problem on other threads, but only now have I found an explanation for it.

It started off with a severe chest infection, and since then I have been prone to chest infections. During the night my breathing becomes gurgly and laboured. This happens occasionally, not every night, but it does seem to have been set off this week by excessive pool use. The problem is patchy, with one area of lung particularly badly affected.

I have never had any history of lung disorders of any kind. I do not have asthma attacks or episodes of coughing or wheezing during the day. My peak expiratory flow is well above normal.

Asthma inhalers make the problem much worse, so I don't use them.

I have been spending a lot of time in pools over the last three years, including freedive training, swimming, and gym in the same building as the pool.

I have not had any injuries such as lung squeeze, and have not done anything else such as extreme packing that could have caused injury.

I am going to cut down on pool use and see what happens.

I think it is vital to share this information. It is a risk which I did not know about, and which has had a much greater effect on my life than any blackout or samba.

Lucia

 

[naiad]

I also now think that pool chemicals could be to blame for my poor performance at pool-based sports and poor tolerance of cold water. I used to think "I'm rubbish at swimming and dynamic" and "I can't stand the cold". This doesn't make sense, because I never used to have problems with stamina and cold resistance.

A few years ago I used to work outdoors doing heavy work in sub-zero temperatures. Sometimes I would be carrying heavy boxes for the whole day. I would be handling ice and freezing water with my bare hands. I never had any trouble with exhaustion or shivering. When I was a kid I would go in cold water quite happily. The problem seems to have started over the last few years, since I started going swimming regularly. It started before I started freediving, so I don't think it could be caused by apnea. Most of the swimming sessions were very leisurely, so I don't think it was overtraining. The only thing I can think of that could have caused it is exposure to chemicals.

My performance in the pool is very bad compared to land-based activities. I get desperately out of breath and can't do much. In the gym I can do all normal things without problems. My dry static PB is 5:45, and I have done 5:00+ many times. In the pool I can do 30m front crawl on the surface. Even a dynamic of 40m with fins often leaves me exhausted. This doesn't make sense.

I also have very poor cold tolerance and shiver constantly in the pool, unless I have my 5mm opencell suit on.

 

[land shark]

Sounds like your overtraining.
Just for the heck of it try a speed burst or two during your front crawls. Change exercise patterns. The trick is to fool your body that will also give your metabolism a kick in the pants too. Just dont take it to the hurt! Its suppose to be fun right? If you like doing laps, Keep it. Just use somthing else for your cardio. Then go have fun in the pool.
From what I've read a three week pattern is a good way to go. Perhaps some one has run the gauntlet could add some more.

 

[naiad]

I don't think I have ever overtrained, at least with swimming. I hardly ever do a lot of hard swimming. Sometimes I just have fun in the pool and don't do any proper swimming. When the bad chest infection happened, I was not doing any hard training of any kind.

Last week I went swimming or diving every day. Most of it was very leisurely, and none was hard training. On Friday and Saturday my chest trouble was the worst it has been in a long time.

I have stopped all swimming and will only do freedive training once a week. I will see what happens and post the results. Whatever happens, I will not be swimming in a chlorinated pool ever again. What I have found out has put me off.

 

[smellsfishy]

Here's a new article linking asthma to indoor pools

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13917448/

 

[naiad]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I know of several children with asthma who use indoor pools regularly. A swimming teacher told me that she teaches a young boy who is a very keen swimmer and has asthma. His sister died of asthma.

I am trying to find out if my problems are caused by pool chemicals. I have greatly cut down on pool use, but I will continue doing everything else the same, including dry statics and land-based fitness training, so any change will only be caused by the decrease in pool use. Today I feel much better than I did a few days ago. If there is a long-term improvement I will post the results.

Some good news - in September I am going to be living near a pool which uses ozone to clean the water, so I'll give that a try.

 

[Adrian]

I remember reading somewhere here a long time ago that several top swimmers were once asmatic - their parents put them to swimming as a way to develop their lungs. So even though there may be some relationship between asma and clorine, perhaps if the person really excersises, it overcomes any negative effect from the chlorine. Just thinking aloud though, I may be totally wrong. In any case I'm glad you're feeling better Lucia, it's a bummer to feel bad for any reason.

 

[land shark]

http://www.news.wisc.edu/12691.html

 

[naiad]

Another article, from the European Respiratory Journal...
http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/full/19/5/827

 

[land shark]

Lucia
From what I got out of that is you have to live in that enviornment for years to have it only become an irritant. The subjects were more or less present while the chemical were being introduced and say peak periods where swimming activities can elevate levels.

Back a few years ago we had a respitory killer called Legionairs desease SP, The search to find out what happened reveled that MANY buildings
had poorly or no maintained Air handling systems. When you take into account all the variables??

Im no expert but the pool I use I believe uses bromine and the air exchange seems quite adequate. Also ozoneators are comming on fast. who knows maybe they are already near you.

On another note my brother in law took a very serious shot of clorine in the plant he worked in. He Shut off a valve so others could escape the leak. ( A hero in my book) but today he has asthma and sometimes requires a inhaler but not very often. And the dose he took I was told you could smell for miles.

just my 2 cents

jim

 

[wet]

Another article, from the European Respiratory Journal...
http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/content/full/19/5/827

That's a good paper, if a bit scary. Never occurred to me those chemicals were there in the air. If I understand correctly, they took measurements at 1m above poolside, since that is where the attendants reside while working. (In USA pools, lifeguards often sit above, perhaps 2m above poolside).

Would it be correct to say they did not measure the air quality just slightly above the water surface (where swimmers typically breathe while doing laps), especially near the center of the pool? DDeden

"The atmospheric nitrogen trichloride levels were measured at the poolside in case one and during the specific challenge tests. The sampling and analysis of nitrogen chloride was conducted using the method proposed by Hery et al. 1. In brief the sampling device comprised of two parts: a tube containing silica gel coated with sulphamic acid to trap hypochlorite and mono- and dichloramine, and a cassette containing a quartz filter treated with sodium carbonate and diarsenic trioxide to trap nitrogen chloride. Sampling was conducted by drawing air through the sampling device using a calibrated pump operating at 1.1 L·min–1. After sampling, the quartz filter was desorbed in distilled water and the resulting solution analysed by ion chromatography using a cation exchange resin and a phthalic acid mobile phase adjusted to pH 4.2. The sampling and recovery efficiency of the filters used has been reported to be >95% 1.

A total of 15 samples for nitrogen chloride were collected in three indoor swimming pools over a 2-day period. Samplers were placed at positions normally occupied by the pool attendants, at ~1 m from the floor level. The airborne nitrogen chloride concentrations were also measured during the challenge test with the sampler located close to the breathing zone".

 

[naiad]

Im no expert but the pool I use I believe uses bromine and the air exchange seems quite adequate. Also ozoneators are comming on fast. who knows maybe they are already near you.

Then it is probably ok. Unfortunately all the pools I have used use chlorine, and some of them have very poor ventilation. My problem started soon after I started using a different pool from usual for swimming. It had poor ventilation and lots of chlorine. The children's pool was a murky brew of chlorine and dirt.

Would it be correct to say they did not measure the air quality just slightly above the water surface (where swimmers typically breathe while doing laps), especially near the center of the pool? DDeden

In another article it mentions that the air quality may be much worse at the surface of the water, so measurements in the pool building may not reflect what swimmers are actually breathing.

The concentration of chlorine in the air is gradual, being highest at the water surface and least at the greatest distance from the surface. Chlorine concentration is also governed by the movement of air across the water surface (the greater the movement, the less the concentration of chloramines assuming that removed air is replaced by fresh air). Many modern pools are structured to not facilitate removal of escaping chlorine.

Some structural characteristics of pools increase chlorine concentrations near the water surface. Some examples are:


Indoor pools with recirculating air, rather than replacement with fresh air.
Indoor pools with low ceilings and inadequate air circulation.
Indoor pools with high sides that inhibit surface air ventilation.
These three features result in accumulated concentrations of THMs just above the water surface, that is, in the air that swimmers continually breathe. Admittedly, one swim in such a pool might not produce any health problems in a swimmer, but frequent users such as competitive age-group, school, college, and master's swimmers suffer extended periods of exaggerated breathing in the hyper-chlorinated micro atmosphere.

 

[wet]

Probably a heat exchange system, that captures the outgoing air's heat and warms the incoming air would be better than just recirculating the old air with a couple ceiling fans. Can't blame the pool operators for trying to save money keeping in the warmth in the cooler climates, but there are better ways than just recirculating the same air over and over.

Rowing & sculling sounds like a good alternative. Here at Humboldt Bay, the water's too cold for swimming without a wet suit, but lots of kayakers and sculling crews all the time, and surfers and abalone freedivers just outside the bay. DDeden

Then it is probably ok. Unfortunately all the pools I have used use chlorine, and some of them have very poor ventilation. My problem started soon after I started using a different pool from usual for swimming. It had poor ventilation and lots of chlorine. The children's pool was a murky brew of chlorine and dirt.


In another article it mentions that the air quality may be much worse at the surface of the water, so measurements in the pool building may not reflect what swimmers are actually breathing.

 

[naiad]

I am going to try rowing. Soon I will be near the coast, so maybe freediving as well.

 

[land shark]

we have a saying where I swim "If you dont piss in my pool I wont swim in your sewer" :0

 

[naiad]

rofl rofl rofl

In the children's pool there is evidence that people don't just piss in the pool...

 

[wet]

Re: Chlorine or ozone

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I know of several children with asthma who use indoor pools regularly. A swimming teacher told me that she teaches a young boy who is a very keen swimmer and has asthma. His sister died of asthma.

I am trying to find out if my problems are caused by pool chemicals. I have greatly cut down on pool use, but I will continue doing everything else the same, including dry statics and land-based fitness training, so any change will only be caused by the decrease in pool use. Today I feel much better than I did a few days ago. If there is a long-term improvement I will post the results.

Some good news - in September I am going to be living near a pool which uses ozone to clean the water, so I'll give that a try.

I noticed this on ozone. I really don't know the good & bad of ozone, but it might make sense to check it out beforehand? This might not be the same ozone chemical used to treat swimming pools. AFAIK, ozone is good when in the upper atmosphere, as it protects us from radiation (?), but bad when in smog because bad for breathing. Do you want me to research this? DDeden

"Ozone ruins toad immune system

Ozone in smog can impair immunity in both human lungs and toad lungs.
Macrophages in lungs engulf bacteria, when dosed with .02 to .08 ppm (typ city smog) exposure, they lose 40% capability to capture bacteria. This pollutant may contribute to the world decline of amphibians".

 

[naiad]

I did think about that. I think the ozone in pools is used to purify the water but not left dissolved in it, so swimmers are not exposed to it. I'm not sure though, and that doesn't sound good.

I have given up on swimming for the time being anyway. I feel so much better without it!

 

[trux]

Re: Chlorine or ozone

I just came over the following article about chlorination, and since Naiad just mentioned chlorine in another thread, I though it may be of interest for others to have a look at it too. Although the risk is know since a longer time, this article contains some updated data:

Chlorine in the bathwater is linked to cancer | the Daily Mail

It is a newspaper article, but if you prefer scientific paper, check out for example this one:
Water Chlorination: Essential Process or Cancer Hazard? -- BULL et al. 28 (2): 155 -- Toxicological Sciences

This one is of some interest too, though it may be biased, because I think it is a website of a chlorine filter manufacturer or dealer:
Water Chlorination and Cancer Risks

As written in the first article, no panic is necessary - chlorine is being used since more than 100 years, and one has to carefully weight its positive and negative effects. Other disinfection methods are possible too, namely Ultra Violet and Ozone disinfection, but they are more expensive and each has certain disadvantages too. Silver filters are also quite efficient but not usable in industrial scale. It seems that optimal would be a hybrid system combining several methods.

I noticed this on ozone. I really don't know the good & bad of ozone, but it might make sense to check it out beforehand? This might not be the same ozone chemical used to treat swimming pools. AFAIK, ozone is good when in the upper atmosphere, as it protects us from radiation (?), but bad when in smog because bad for breathing.
...
"Ozone ruins toad immune system...

Ozone is always the same ozone regardless if in water, low or high atmosphere. It is a molecule containing three oxygen atoms (O3) and is very unstable. When used for water disinfection, it is usually introduced into the system at the beginning of the process, before the water enters mechanical (sand) filters, and other parts of the cleaning system. Not only ozone does not dissolve in water, but due its instability it destroys into O2 rapidly, and additionally the removal is assured and accelerated technologically. There are no measurable ozone residuals on the output of the water cleaning station.

It means it poses no health risks directly, because it is inexistent, but in the same time it is also a disadvantage, because unlike at chlorine you cannot easily measure the degree of disinfection. Ozone can create some dangerous byproducts (see here or here), so the technology must assure avoiding it, or filtering them afterwards. Another disadvantage is that it will not kill any bacteria introduced into the water after the disinfection, hence it is less suitable for swimming pools (or the water circulation must be higher than at chlorinated water).

You can read more about ozone disinfection, its advantages and disadvantages for example here:
http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/nsfc/pdf/eti/Ozone_Dis_tech.pdf

If you are interested to get more info on Ozone, then the best starting point is probably WikiPedia:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone"]Ozone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Although Ozone is toxic and indeed dangerous both for animals and vegetation, it is also being used for healing ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_therapy"]Ozone therapy[/ame]). However, due to its instability, in the lower atmosphere there can be dangerous levels of Ozone only at high temperatures, strong light, and sufficinet presence of catylisators (Nitrogen Oxides and Hydrocarbons in pollution). This is definitely not the case at Ozone used for water disinfection.

 

[laminar]

Has anyone swam in a pool cleaned with PristineBlue?

Pristine Pools - The chlorine free solution for public and private swimming pools
PristineBlue | Non-Chlorine Pool Products, Water Treatments.

The website seems aimed at private backyard pools. It's not clear if they have a product aimed at public pools.

It sounds almost too good to be true. I wrote to the manager of my pool about it but got no response.