CO2/O2 tables and max times

[ADR]

I was wondering if anyone has a view on extrapolating from tables to theoretical max performances in static. I'm currently working my way through the PFI tables. The tables are harder than those I've done before as they repeat the last (hardest) hold. I was wondering on views for max performance based on these as it could be a way of determining if the max prep is optimised or not.

....this is what I'm up to at the moment
(CO2)
1:45rest/2:30hold/1:30rest/2:30hold/1:15rest/2:30hold/1:00rest/2:30hold/0:45 rest/2:30hold/0:30rest/2:30hold/0:15rest/2:30hold/0:15rest/2:30hold

(02)
2:00rest/2:30hold/2:00rest/2:45hold/2:00rest/3:00hold/2:00rest/3:15hold/2:00rest/3:30hold/2:00rest/3:45hold/2:00rest/4:00hold/2:00rest/4:00hold

 

[perow1]

I would say that it is almost impossible to extrapolate your max time from the tables. Regarding myself I think it is completely different to hold the breath past a point you have never ventured. When you have not been past a certain time; say five inutes you cannot expect what is going to happen even if you repededly do past 4 mins. The best way to know your max is to try max. Static tables may be useful as training but it is not max. I think it would be useful to add max statics to your training. You will grow stronger mentally and consistensy is very important.

 

[naiad]

For me it depends on a lot of things. If I have good CO2 tolerance, and I have been doing tables regularly, and the intervals in the table are not too short, then the longest time in the table might be close to my max time. If the intervals in the table are short, then I should have a longer max time. (This is for O2 tables - I couldn't do a max static, then 15 seconds rest, then another max!)

I hope this makes sense - not sure that it does myself. I looked at my explanation and was suddenly reminded of this...

[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=60706"]Question Time[/ame]

Lucia

 

[jome]

I also think a max static is a totally different thing, especially if it is a pb.

-You get hit by co2 warnings and low o2 symptoms simultaneously, which as a feeling is much worse than either of them alone. Also a good static is one where you have high co2 but push to low o2
-Your head get's messed up by venturing beyond the known "safe point" and all kinds of things start to pop into your head.

Maybe extrapolating would work for someone, but I doubt it would work for most. But I do think it could be an useful tool in measuring the effectiveness of your warmup (which is essentially aiming to delay the breathing reflex)...If you wanted to use it that way.

All in all, I've found tables pretty much useless after you pass a certain point. Also, I've found no substitute for max statics as a training tool. I've tried everything you can imagine, but to progress in max static (after a certain point), you must train max static.

By a certain point I mean that for most people improvement comes from simply daring to push further, learning to pack more or learning to tolerate more co2 (or hyperventilating), learning warm up routines etc...

But for someone who can any day push them selves to o2 limit, progress is not made in those areas...

 

[naiad]

I find tables useful, but I don't think I've reached my limit, so maybe if I do tables for a long time there will come a point when they are not useful any more.

For me, a difficult table is often physically harder than a max static, but there is also the factor of daring to push further, which can make the max static more demanding.

 

[SEDATE]

As for me, the tables are not useful, just waste our times
The trick is to win mentally apnea
try this:
first month:

5min preap each day, 0.15 sec increase
first day: Hold 1 max , and note it, it your best max, let say it is 1:30, finish the day
second day your target is1:45(1:30+0.15), if you hold 1:40 , it is not the target, just very close, Go 5min relax and hold, 1:45 OK finish the second day
Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go
1 months later you will reach 4:00 and you will waste 20min or 30 min EVERY DAY

next month:
5min preap each day, 0.10 sec increase
Target from 4:00 to go 4:50

The trick is to wake up mamalian reflex by pushing every day a bit more, and come over everyday's target, it will work

The best time is very early morning or late night(fell very hungry)
let say if you not achive second day target,(after 1 or 2 times more try, leave it)leave it tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, achive! go other !

 

[naiad]

I think it is better not to do max statics every day. It was fine for me when my PB was about 2:00, but now a max time means 5:00+ and I couldn't do this every day. It might also not be healthy.

I could train every day, but it would be a mixture of things.

 

[jome]

I'm convinced it is not healthy from first hand experience

But it's reasonably ok as long as you have breaks every now and them. But series of max statics every day for a period of 3-5 days is very effective training...

 

[perow1]

I agree with Jome...
...what you are training for is to be able to hold your breath for a long time. If you train what you want to be good at you will see results. One reason may bee that if you have a history of many max attempts it may be easier to repeat when you want to. You will get to know yourself better under those circumstances.

 

[ADR]

Thanks for all the comments on this. I am fully aware of the arguements both for and against specificity of training approaches but that was not really what was intended by my question, perhaps I should have been clearer. Take a freediver with say a max of 6:30 and ask them to find what CO2 table and what 02 table is their limit and you get an indication for that freediver of a relationship between tables and max attempts. If you ask a whole lot of freedivers the same question you may find a general relationship to the same thing. That was what I was really looking for. Apply the general relationship and maybe a indication of the effectiveness of the prep would be evident.

 

[Aquagenic]

A poll might be very beneficial for understanding this relationship, if it exists.
That is, if you can manage to cook up an accurate one.

~James

 

[Bill]

Thanks Andy
When you started this thread, I looked at my records. It was hard to believe what they were saying. I started doing dry sevens over four years ago on very simple breathe-ups. Since then I've used four different sets of tables and some variations. There seems to be no connection between the tables and max static except for the fact that doing two maxes per week, one wet and one dry, increases my ability to do O2 and CO2 tables, a whole bunch. I now use the new PFI tables because they are faster and then extend the last hold to max. When my aerobic condition comes back, I'll do all eight by the book and a max attempt seven minutes later. Not optimum but, close enough and excellent training.
Aloha
Bill

 

[SEDATE]

Bill
''new PFI tables''
what kind of table is?

 

[Bill]

Sedate
PFI referred to Performance Freediving classes taught by Kirk and Martin. They changed the tables one or two years ago, hence the 'new'.
Aloha
Bill

 

[Lidija]

Sedate
PFI referred to Performance Freediving classes taught by Kirk and Martin. They changed the tables one or two years ago, hence the 'new'.
Aloha
Bill

Where they can be found? Tables I mean,not Kirk and Martin

 

[naiad]

I also think a max static is a totally different thing, especially if it is a pb.

-You get hit by co2 warnings and low o2 symptoms simultaneously, which as a feeling is much worse than either of them alone. Also a good static is one where you have high co2 but push to low o2

For me, the feeling of CO2 and low O2 simultaneously is less bad than either on its own. A good static is when I get the balance right. A max static is very difficult, but still not as much as the terrible contractions caused by high CO2 alone, or the fierce urge to breathe caused by low O2 without high CO2.

Maybe I'm lucky and the two feelings cancel each other out.

 

[samdive]

what would you all do if you were, say three weeks before a competition and wanted to build up to a max for that? (one night a week training in the pool and the rest dry?)

I quite like doing tables but I haven't found they help my max much - more something to do when you don't feel like the struggle of a max or when you don't have enough time to build up to a max. I find CO2 tables a lot easier than max statics....

 

[Rémi]

I find CO2 tables a lot easier than max statics....

Maybe because they are too easy
At the end try to repeat a few times the 15 s recovery ones, or do 15 10 5 s ... if it is not enough do longer holds....
To make it shorter and more interesting, I do that on a home-bike now

 

[samdive]

I've done tables of half my max static (and more actually) down to one breath... I think I find it easier because basically I get bored on max statics! Short holds are fine even with no time in between - my brain gets tired of waiting 5 minutes to breath again and I can't be bothered to fight the contractions that long... just got not staying power......

 

[jome]

3 weeks is usually what I use as the final preparation cycle for a competition.

-Stop all cardio excercise. All of it
-Start eating less, I'm not saying you should fast, but ideally, you should be loosing some weight during those weeks.

The first two weeks I would train like a maniac, at least 4 times a week, max statics, preferably wet ones but if not possible, dry.

On the third week, I would rest 3-4 days and then 2 days prior to competition, I would start static again, hoping to "peak" on the third day (competition day).

Now this is just my routine, I'm not saying it will work for everybody...