co2 tollerance for spearfishing,spearos

[spearheads]

Hi everyone.

I have a question which is really making me think again about co2 training for spearfishing.

Is co2 training delaying my body's natural warning signals to breath, if this is so will i be making myself more prone to blackouts because i have delayed the urge to breath.

Because you have built up a tolerance to high co2 levels, the amount of oxygen in your body will be lower than the body thinks.


So do you believe that co2 training for spearfishing is a good or bad idea.

I'm sorry if my question is hard to understand.

 

[trux]

It was recently discussed for example here:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/huntin...ques/70669-increasing-depth-time-hunting.html

 

[spearheads]

Thanks trux.
So co2 training is not a good idea for spearfishing, just keep diving is the answer.

Could 02 tables and training be any benefit or would it be non-beneficial as co2 training.

My training consists of jogging, co2 tables, apnea walks and improving elasticity of my ribcage.
I have also been practicing some of the relaxation exercises in the manual of freediving book which is a great book.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I've always thought CO2 training was a bad idea for spearfishermen. Pure freedivers have someone there to save them if they go over the edge, but spearos seldom do.

I want to listen to my body's natural warning mechanism, not suppress it.

 

[spearheads]

When people say the best training is lots of diving you are still co2 training because your body is getting used the high levels of co2 in the body.
co2 training on land could simply just be improving you quicker instead of waiting over a period of time for the body to adjust the the high levels co2 because of lots of diving.

I never push myself when diving as soon as i fell a contraction i will surface, on deeper dives i will surface before the urge to breath just to be safe.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I never push myself when diving as soon as i fell a contraction i will surface, on deeper dives i will surface before the urge to breath just to be safe.

I guess I'm just very conservative, but I've never felt a contraction. If I did, I would think I was pushing myself too much.

 

[spearheads]

A contraction is when your diaphragm contracts due to a increase level in co2, when i say pushing i mean over 10 contractions, also my shallow dives are under 5 meters but still a BO can happen at any depth.

 

[Erik]

I've always thought CO2 training was a bad idea for spearfishermen. Pure freedivers have someone there to save them if they go over the edge, but spearos seldom do.

I want to listen to my body's natural warning mechanism, not suppress it.

+1000!
Erik

 

[Bill McIntyre]

A contraction is when your diaphragm contracts due to a increase level in co2, when i say pushing i mean over 10 contractions, also my shallow dives are under 5 meters but still a BO can happen at any depth.

I realize what a contraction is and I know a blackout can happen at any depth. But what I am saying is that I've never felt a single contraction, much less 10 contractions.

 

[spaghetti]

Freediving is freediving, spearfishing is spearfishing.
Increasing your CO2 tolerance for hunting is just minimal help (and possibly a danger), cause when you hunt you do not concentrate on the dive: it's no introspection, it's circumspection. You have a gun to handle, a terrain to scan, fish to seize, in short it's not the same thing at all.
Just learn to breath properly: three or four breathing acts before each dive, deep and slow breaths, with the exhale time longer than inhale time, and then proper intervals to oxygenate between dive and dive. And NEVER stretch your breath hold time to the limit while hunting: always save some "emergency" air for the case you get tangled or so. (This is nothing scientific, just a real-life amateur spearo's experience)/

Ten contractions sounds too much for me too, but just like Bill I didn't exoerience that to say how close that's are close to black out.
I quoted above my honest post in the recent discussion, just to add one point: competitive freedivers who perform in CW, dynamics and statics do ONE apnea, while spearos go up and down many and many times. This marks a big difference.

 

[azapa]

what I am discovering (a lot through reading here) is that everyones contraction point is different. Some never have them, some have lots (me) but the first 5 are hardly noticeable. I can normally go, in a pool, being spotted 100% 2x (further/longer) than my first contraction before I can't stand it anymore. And, I'm a little lazy to push further.

When I'm spearfishing, alone (most times, I know, I know., don't say anything, I assume the risks) I come up at max on 2 contractions, ie 50% of my max. In real terms, once I dive, about 10 to 15m typically, I come back up in 1:00 to 1:15. Its no fun/not worth pushing more.

A dive computer with submerged time alarm would be great to avoid those down stays (adrenalin induced/just seen/just speared fish) that mess with the bodies clock, I have found that I forget contractions at those moments.

If I did CO2 tables (which I am too lazy to do) I would not feel as safe in the water.

Safe hunting!

 

[spearheads]

When i say 10 contractions this would be really pushing a dive(being stupid), still on land i can take a lot more contractions than this i have not counted them but over 1.30 of contractions.
I have been working on statics with a new pb of 4.36, but its skill that will catch you fish not a long bottom time.
I'm just going to work on relaxation for my spearfishing.
Spaghetti my breath up is just normal breathing then 4 slow deep breaths and like you said longer expiration than inhalation.

Bill McIntyre sorry my previous post sounds like i'm trying to teach you, When i have little to teach.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill McIntyre sorry my previous post sounds like i'm trying to teach you.

There is nothing wrong with teaching me- there is a lot that I don't know. I was only making the point that I have never noticed a contraction, but maybe I just don't notice, or maybe I'm just one of those people who don't get them for some reason.

I have never done any work in a pool with spotters. Perhaps if I were to focus on just static apnea, it would be different. But I'm so lazy that I don't even practice holding my breath sitting in a chair or on the couch. It makes me feel breathless.

 

[cdavis]

Slightly different perspective on C02 tables.

In general, I'm with Bill, I like my warning signs and stay strictly away from things that primarily increase C02 tolerance. However, I've seen quite a few beginning divers who can't hold their breath for squat because their C02 tolerance is extemely poor. For them, a limited course of C02 tables greatly and quickly improves their diving and I haven't yet seen any bad effects. I sure would not recommend them for a serious or long time spearo, especially one that dives deep water, too easy to overdo.

Connor

 

[LastOneOut]

What effect does O2 table training have for the hunter? Is the O2 level of tolerance different than the CO2 level tolerance in terms of danger of SWB? I am a little confused as to the effect of dynamic training and O2 tables vs. CO2 tables. Seems like O2 tables and dynamic training would help the hunter use less O2 - thus less likely to blackout. I guess my real question is do the O2 tables just make you more tolerant of low O2 levels i.e. just as bad for a hunter as a high tolerance of high CO2? Any clarification would be helpful.

 

[GreekDiver]

most of my spearfishing times are around 1:15 to 1:30 @ 20 meters. I can go over 1:30 but its too time consuming of a recovery. I rather go up and down more times at 1:10 than to constantly hit 1:30. I find that i get more fish with more dives and less of a total dive time. But its nice to have that extra air to get a better shot.

The problems i encounter is when i don't get sleep. I dive lots of times with 4 hours of sleep which really restricts my dive time. Since i don't eat in the mornings when i spearfish, i become extremely sore from working out in the gym the previous day.

 

[cdavis]

To LastOneOut's question,

This is MHO and might not be perfectly correct. Most anything you do in apnea trains both 02 and 02 tolerance. Some train one more than others. Things that train primarily 02, 02 tables, 1/2 lung apnea walking, etc, help by teaching the body to use 02 more efficiently through a variety of mechanisms, by teaching the body how to continue to operate at lower P02 levels, and maybe by increasing the various 02 stores. All of these help you stay down longer, safer. For me, the improved C02 tolerance that comes with 02 training is sufficient for my needs, so I stay away from targeted C02 trainng.

Connor

 

[LastOneOut]

cdavis,
Thank you for answering my questions. If I understand you correctly O2 tables are increasing the effective use of o2, so working on o2 tables should not increase potential SWB as using co2 tables could.

 

[spearheads]

I think your dive times will be the same because you will still have the same co2 tolerance if you only do 02 training, and high levels of co2 is which gives you the urge to breath ,not low 02 levels. So i think you need to do a little co2 training with the o2 tables to get a good result. But i might be wrong.

Just saw cdavis post the half lung apnea walks are targeted for 02 training but also work a little on co2 tolerance, just the right balance to be safe.

 

[cdavis]

Both types of tables (and everything else in apnea) train both things, but each is supposed to emphasize different areas. You can develop a high C02 tolerance with 02 tables, its just faster and easier with C02 tables.

Connor