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Coming clean.
- Thread starterRicksafer
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
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A detail analysis of "potential" fraud and the "possibility" of cheating in the freediving specialty of "No Limits".
Revelations in detail of what many suspected, or imagined and some knew but no one dared to expose. "Whistle blowing" from the inside. Or just a theory?
Keep posted.
A heavy conscience is hard to carry around living a suppressed lie.
Why now?
Reality or a hypothetical case? Product of a vivid imagination or a real fact?
This will be for our members of all opinions to discuss and arrive to their own conclusions.Isn't that what this Forum is all about?
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For obvious reasons and in order not to offend anyone's sensibility this tale is going to be told in a hypothetical fashion. Inquiring minds will have food for thoughts. Let's call it a "A Royal Tale of Deep Deception" PART 1
In a hypothetical world it would go like this:
"Once upon a time in a Planet called Oceanus there lived this vain Emperor, king and master of "all things diving". HE, in his infinite vanity and ego maniacal ways, just had to be the absolute number one, always, compulsively, no matter what it would take!
In the beginning, HE had shined by his own legitimate luster, but as the years passed by and other competitors matched and surpassed him, his narcissism choke him.
He then devised a very simple and yet effective ruse for assured success on each and every new record setting "attempt". Of course the Emperor KNEW HE had it in his pocket before hand, full proof... here's HOW.
The royal chariot he used to plunge for assured ever deeper records in his quest for his subjects acclaim, devotion and adoration was cleverly manipulated.
He rigged it in such a way that he would be filmed by this video camera ALL the way DOWN, and ONLY on his way DOWN, after all he was an athlete and could hold his breath that long.
Once arrived at the deepest part of the immersion, the chariot's upper part would then be released or separated by HIM from the bottom part which was the one that had the camera on. They would stay at the bottom, both the lower chariot section AND the camera.
Therefore, the camera would only be able to film HIM during the very few seconds of the beginning of the ascent following such a release or detachment of the ascending part of the chariot.
He had before personally rigged the ascending portion of the royal chariot making dammed sure the plastic HOSE that connected the "spare air" or "pony" air bottle used to inflate the royal balloon would NOT be secured inside the balloon.
He needed it to be LOOSE, ACCESSIBLE, RETRIEVABLE for his treachery and deceptive ways to work. HE has done so, so many times before.
He had even once punished one of his servers when he tried to tie wrap it inside the balloon, precisely to avoid the risk of it coming loose. That didn't sit well with the Emperor, at all!
"Don't ever touch anything!" He yelled at the helper who, at that time couldn't understand why! Later, I knew why!
But the Emperor sure did.
After releasing the inflatable balloon or ascending section of the rigged chariot he KNEW he had a minimum of 150 to 200 feet BEFORE encountering the second deepest safety diver.
He would be ascending at first rather slowly, giving him more than plenty of time to execute his trick, all alone, all by himself, NO camera, NO witness. No one would be the wiser. He has confidence, you know the "practice makes perfect" kind of thing.
He then, could easily with one hand PULL OUT the air gushing hose from inside the balloon and, while the other hand held to the ascending balloon, at his leisure, HE could inhale as many times as he wished from it. The Emperor had successfully done it many times before! He has mastered and fine tuned the deception. So easy to inhale from a medium pressure second stage regulator hose.
The "blank or "dead" area from the deepest bottom safety diver he had left behind to the next one was free for the taking. Those fool subjects and courtesans back at the surface will never know. How could them?
Once the dirty deed was done and once he had replenished his lungs many times with compressed air enriched by the partial pressure of the oxygen he would only have to again replace the air-giving-helping hose back INSIDE the balloon and PROGRESSIVELY EXHALE the excessive air from the ascent on his way up.
The "illegal" surreptitiously originated expanding air bubbles would be masqueraded, merged into the massive "legal" bubbles coming of of the ascending balloon.
By the time HE would meet the second deepest safety diver, the fraud was already done.
"Fools", he thought.
And in his altered egotistic state of mind he even remembered that he even had the audacity of doing the exact same thing, this time in public, when he did the same stunt (yes the Emperor loved stunts!) in Alligator Island or was it called Cayman Challenge?
He had proved that one can inhale or breath compressed air at 250 meter! And safely surface. It was even on film.
This last time it was even easier, it was only 163 meters, but enough to be NUMBER ONE AGAIN!!!
Again he thought how HE had really always manipulated all those poor flattering, submissive and ignorant followers who would never know the Emperor's Reign was fake.
An Emperor made of "bubbles".
Keep posted or PART 2.0
Now, to each one his own opinion. After all, this is only a tale of a hypothetical vain, self absorbed and conceited Emperor in a watery called Planet Oceanus. Or is t it?
In a hypothetical world it would go like this:
"Once upon a time in a Planet called Oceanus there lived this vain Emperor, king and master of "all things diving". HE, in his infinite vanity and ego maniacal ways, just had to be the absolute number one, always, compulsively, no matter what it would take!
In the beginning, HE had shined by his own legitimate luster, but as the years passed by and other competitors matched and surpassed him, his narcissism choke him.
He then devised a very simple and yet effective ruse for assured success on each and every new record setting "attempt". Of course the Emperor KNEW HE had it in his pocket before hand, full proof... here's HOW.
The royal chariot he used to plunge for assured ever deeper records in his quest for his subjects acclaim, devotion and adoration was cleverly manipulated.
He rigged it in such a way that he would be filmed by this video camera ALL the way DOWN, and ONLY on his way DOWN, after all he was an athlete and could hold his breath that long.
Once arrived at the deepest part of the immersion, the chariot's upper part would then be released or separated by HIM from the bottom part which was the one that had the camera on. They would stay at the bottom, both the lower chariot section AND the camera.
Therefore, the camera would only be able to film HIM during the very few seconds of the beginning of the ascent following such a release or detachment of the ascending part of the chariot.
He had before personally rigged the ascending portion of the royal chariot making dammed sure the plastic HOSE that connected the "spare air" or "pony" air bottle used to inflate the royal balloon would NOT be secured inside the balloon.
He needed it to be LOOSE, ACCESSIBLE, RETRIEVABLE for his treachery and deceptive ways to work. HE has done so, so many times before.
He had even once punished one of his servers when he tried to tie wrap it inside the balloon, precisely to avoid the risk of it coming loose. That didn't sit well with the Emperor, at all!
"Don't ever touch anything!" He yelled at the helper who, at that time couldn't understand why! Later, I knew why!
But the Emperor sure did.
After releasing the inflatable balloon or ascending section of the rigged chariot he KNEW he had a minimum of 150 to 200 feet BEFORE encountering the second deepest safety diver.
He would be ascending at first rather slowly, giving him more than plenty of time to execute his trick, all alone, all by himself, NO camera, NO witness. No one would be the wiser. He has confidence, you know the "practice makes perfect" kind of thing.
He then, could easily with one hand PULL OUT the air gushing hose from inside the balloon and, while the other hand held to the ascending balloon, at his leisure, HE could inhale as many times as he wished from it. The Emperor had successfully done it many times before! He has mastered and fine tuned the deception. So easy to inhale from a medium pressure second stage regulator hose.
The "blank or "dead" area from the deepest bottom safety diver he had left behind to the next one was free for the taking. Those fool subjects and courtesans back at the surface will never know. How could them?
Once the dirty deed was done and once he had replenished his lungs many times with compressed air enriched by the partial pressure of the oxygen he would only have to again replace the air-giving-helping hose back INSIDE the balloon and PROGRESSIVELY EXHALE the excessive air from the ascent on his way up.
The "illegal" surreptitiously originated expanding air bubbles would be masqueraded, merged into the massive "legal" bubbles coming of of the ascending balloon.
By the time HE would meet the second deepest safety diver, the fraud was already done.
"Fools", he thought.
And in his altered egotistic state of mind he even remembered that he even had the audacity of doing the exact same thing, this time in public, when he did the same stunt (yes the Emperor loved stunts!) in Alligator Island or was it called Cayman Challenge?
He had proved that one can inhale or breath compressed air at 250 meter! And safely surface. It was even on film.
This last time it was even easier, it was only 163 meters, but enough to be NUMBER ONE AGAIN!!!
Again he thought how HE had really always manipulated all those poor flattering, submissive and ignorant followers who would never know the Emperor's Reign was fake.
An Emperor made of "bubbles".
Keep posted or PART 2.0
Now, to each one his own opinion. After all, this is only a tale of a hypothetical vain, self absorbed and conceited Emperor in a watery called Planet Oceanus. Or is t it?
Well, I guess you cannot speak about anyone else than Pipin. To tell the truth, I think nobody would be surprised knowing he cheated, but frankly told Pipin is out of the circuit for many years and nobody really cares about him a his old records. He was a very controversial person and mentioning his name usually brings both hate and love reactions.
However, personally I doubt any No Limits freediver would need to cheat on the way up in the way you describe - the length of the breath-hold is definitely not the bottle neck that freedivers need to fight (well, unless he had a terribly slow sled). Even at the much deeper current NLT dives over 200m, the time needed is just around 4 minutes - absolutely no problem for even a very mediocre freediver. The real problem is the pressure, the narcosis, the DCS, and especially the compensation. By inhaling from a tank the freediver would expose himself to much more serious risks than when simply ascending on apnea.
Hence my conclusion is that, although I do not belong to the admirers of Pipin, I very strongly doubt that he cheated in the way you described. I think it is a pure fiction. It does not mean though that he did not cheat in other ways, but that's a completely different story.
PS: Besides it, Pipin did also many deep tandem NLT dives, and not only with Audrey. I really doubt he would manage to hide such tricks.
However, personally I doubt any No Limits freediver would need to cheat on the way up in the way you describe - the length of the breath-hold is definitely not the bottle neck that freedivers need to fight (well, unless he had a terribly slow sled). Even at the much deeper current NLT dives over 200m, the time needed is just around 4 minutes - absolutely no problem for even a very mediocre freediver. The real problem is the pressure, the narcosis, the DCS, and especially the compensation. By inhaling from a tank the freediver would expose himself to much more serious risks than when simply ascending on apnea.
Hence my conclusion is that, although I do not belong to the admirers of Pipin, I very strongly doubt that he cheated in the way you described. I think it is a pure fiction. It does not mean though that he did not cheat in other ways, but that's a completely different story.
PS: Besides it, Pipin did also many deep tandem NLT dives, and not only with Audrey. I really doubt he would manage to hide such tricks.
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You're absolutely entitled to your doubts, That's why the tale has a Part 2. And, after all, it's all "hypothetical" isn't it? Remember?
I am alittle biased towards this, mainly becuase i am cuban,and oceanmen was one of the things that compelled me to dive.
But, there are serious risks with what was discribed, I really dont know how one would survive.
I would hate to think that alot of the "magic" in these no limits dives is pure bull.
While some people dont care about these "stunt" divers, they do give the greatest exposure to the sport of freediving.
I really hope none of this is true, and really if you are correct, you really just messed up my day because I already feel alittle disappointed.
Makes me think of when I found out about steroids in baseball.
But, there are serious risks with what was discribed, I really dont know how one would survive.
I would hate to think that alot of the "magic" in these no limits dives is pure bull.
While some people dont care about these "stunt" divers, they do give the greatest exposure to the sport of freediving.
I really hope none of this is true, and really if you are correct, you really just messed up my day because I already feel alittle disappointed.
Makes me think of when I found out about steroids in baseball.
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This might just be a fairy tale. It might just be something that could "have happened", even often or perhaps it never did!
This whole exercise is just to make people think, wonder, doubt, guess, analyze and then make their own conclusions.
Is it possible? Technically of course it is, it was done before publicly in a filmed spectacle called "The Cayman Challenge".
It is certainly technically possible, though it brings a lot of risks (DCS, narcosis, barotrauma). And Pipin himself did such stunts completely openly - see for example his 2-breath NLT record. Most likely your story is based on that case, but that was no secret.Ricksafer said:
However, cheating in this way, although possible, makes absolutely no sense, and there is no reason why he would need doing it. As I wrote the breath-hold time is not at all a limiting factor, and there is no way it could help in reaching bigger depth. It is simply a pure nonsense. Please note I do not tell Pipin was a clean and honest person. I did not know him personally and have no idea. But I know for sure that he would not need inhaling on the ascent (unless something went really bad). Perhpas he did, but from technical point of view the importance of it is practically void. It is as if you told me that a freediver inhaled during a 4 minutes static apnea - sure it is possible, but why would he do it, and who would care if he really did? Especially if it was 10 years ago.
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ricksafer.
it would be wonderful if you could be more specific about the chariot pilot and his methods and expose the cheat whoever he may be .
it would be wonderful if you could be more specific about the chariot pilot and his methods and expose the cheat whoever he may be .
For sure it is not Herbert Nitsch - he does not use any tank with compressed air on his sled for the ascent. The only other WR contenders who come to mind besides Pipin, is Patrick Musimu, but since he never did any official record, any actually never had any proof of his 200+m dive, it is certainly also not him. So then I believe we only have Loïc Leferme, but there I am pretty sure it was not him. So Rick's story cannot be about anyone else than Pipin, but do not expect any confirmation from Rick - if he confirms it and has no evidence, he could finish with some troubles.
Personally, I really find it uninteresting and unimportant. It would disappoint me if someone told me some of the recent record holders cheated, but I really do not care about knowing about such a lame cheat 10 years ago.
Personally, I really find it uninteresting and unimportant. It would disappoint me if someone told me some of the recent record holders cheated, but I really do not care about knowing about such a lame cheat 10 years ago.
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You used a lot of "perhaps" and I agree. Perhaps you're comparing apples to oranges, and not taking into consideration Partial Pressures, the O2 absorption at depth, the interruption of an initial apnea and the beginning of another just for the ascent. The effects or lower temperature , etc. Perhaps anything could explain how any fictional character can announce an increase of 10, 12 and even 16 more meters in an incredible jump from previous record.
It's like a 10.1 second 100 meter runner announcing to clock the next day 9.5 and do it!
It just makes you wonder. Again, who knows?
As I wrote, the breath-hold is not a lmiting factor. Ask any freediver who did NLT dives - the limiting factor is the depth and not the time. Herbert, even after his 214m NLT dive, abandonned the sled at some 30m and swam very slowly to the surface on his own (to limit the DCS risk) - plenty of time remaining.
And even if the time was an issue for some freediver, a simpler way than cheating in such stupid and lame way would be using a faster sled.
And even if the time was an issue for some freediver, a simpler way than cheating in such stupid and lame way would be using a faster sled.
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I've heard, and read, this very thing before about Pipin, but the way I remember it was that he was able to take the hose out of the lift bag on the way DOWN so that he could continue to equalize. It would do no good to have extra air to breathe on the way back up. It's the journey down where it helps the most.
I think I even remember reading that the movie deal with James Cameron was called off because he wanted to be able to film him the entire time he was diving- by attaching a camera onto a cable next to him.
Either way, nothing he has ever done (either real or fake) can match the current constant ballast record.
I think that this has all be written about in great detail by Carlos Serra.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Last-Attempt-Carlos-Serra/dp/1425738397]Amazon.com: The Last Attempt: The true story of freediving champion Audrey Mestre and the mystery of her death (9781425738396): Carlos Serra: Books[/ame]
Jon
I think I even remember reading that the movie deal with James Cameron was called off because he wanted to be able to film him the entire time he was diving- by attaching a camera onto a cable next to him.
Either way, nothing he has ever done (either real or fake) can match the current constant ballast record.
I think that this has all be written about in great detail by Carlos Serra.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Last-Attempt-Carlos-Serra/dp/1425738397]Amazon.com: The Last Attempt: The true story of freediving champion Audrey Mestre and the mystery of her death (9781425738396): Carlos Serra: Books[/ame]
Jon
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I don't think that would be the case, hypothetically speaking, any one diver being filmed ALL THE WAY DOWN couldn't simply do as you say. Why risk being filmed cheating or unmasked by the camera when it's so easy to simply puff a few times in the solitude of the deep end. As someone said, "going down all the saint help" the problem is getting back up! And, who will know? Even if the imaginary person had enough apnea, why do the extra effort?
And indeed as someone said, there might have been indeed a price to pay, perhaps a treatment for DCS that no one , or just a few...knew about?
The whole purpose of this fictional tale.. or sorts, is just to have a reasonable doubt, something to evaluate, is it possible? Is it probable?
Nowadays who really cares. It's and old story and its just a tale for having fun. Don't take it too seriously or you'll end up like the Emperor in the fairy tale. Out of date and obsolete.
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