Common AIDA / FFESSM (CMAS) competition

trux · May 3, 2009

Last year we had a competition in Italy organized together by AIDA and CMAS, but in fact they were two parallel but still entirely separate competitions. This time there is a competition organized together by AIDA and FFESSM (the French branch of CMAS) in Marseille. And unlike in Italy, here, the freedivers will compete together - they just need to announce under which federation they want to be compete, and the respective rules will be applied. Judges for both federations will be present (thanks to a agreement between AIDA and FFESSM, French judges can referee under both sets of rules).

The competition takes place on 6th and 7th of June. You can find more details at Freedive Central: Marseille Indoor :: Freedive Central

Unfortunately, currently the competition does not have ranking status. Although planned long time ago, it was later canceled because of refused swimming pool access, the organizers found a new pool now, but since the time is already rather advanced, they did not manage to find yet the second needed international AIDA E judge for receiving the AIDA ranking status. If you are a an international AIDA E judge, and would like to help out, please contact Greg Piazzola at the address given on the above linked page.

Anyway, I am looking forward to this common AIDA / FFESSM competition - it will be certainly a big fun. Although FFESSM is not equal to CMAS (in fact there are some disputes between them too), it is a very nice idea, and hopefully can help with approaching both camps.

See you in Marseille!
Ivo

osusim · May 4, 2009

I just wonder how results can be compared? Different rules means different disciplines.
It 's like to put football and rugby teams to the same field ...

trux · May 4, 2009

The disciplines are identical - STA, DYN, and DNF. The differences in rules are relatively minor: mostly it is just different penalizations for diverse rules violations. The surface protocol is also practically identical, just FFESSM does not allow any samba. As I wrote, each competitor can compete under the set of rules he/she choses. The results are still pretty well comparable, although AIDA freedivers can push little bit more into the samba zone as far as they manage to complete their protocol correctly in time, while FFESSM freedivers need to be more careful, because they risk several months of disqualification for a samba or blackout.

rxcnc2 · May 4, 2009

trux said:
The disciplines are identical - STA, DYN, and DNF. The differences in rules are relatively minor

Protocols are similar in spirit, but sufficiently different in practice. in CMAS you have to touch a plate, no need to say anything. I have seen people with mild sambas putting their mouth again in the water and being given ok. I wouldn't conclude that it's easier or not to get away with samba under AIDA. It's true what you say about 6 months disqualification in CMAS, but that's for blackout.

In Lignano, there were a couple of cases which showed how a minor difference can result in a very big disappointment. A CMAS guy started (or wanted to start) his static a few seconds after TOP: disqualified, you have to start before TOP. A CMAS lady started her dynamic within the allowed zone, but without touching the wall: also disqualified.

I assume that the CMAS and AIDA judges will be different persons, because it seems to me quite difficult for the same person to judge under two different sets of rules.

osusim · May 4, 2009

There are no STA and DNF in CMAS, so new rules will be invented :t
As for DYN if an AIDA athlete swam e.g. 110,82 m the result will be 110m. If CMAS athlete stroke a stick to 110,82m the result will be 110,82m. How can you compare beathlone (diving with stick) with other diving? And I wonder where CMAS atletes will keep stick during DNF? rofl

rxcnc2 · May 4, 2009

Well CMAS does not forbid STA or DNF, but they are not considered
for ranking, championships etc. As the last FFESSM results show
these disciplines take place and with good performances.

Anyway, this Marseille competition is great at least in principle, let's
see how they manage it in practice and maybe it will be another
little step closer. The "after Lignano" discussion in Italy was
quite positive.

trux · May 4, 2009

osusim said:
There are no STA and DNF in CMAS, so new rules will be invented :t

Both STA and DNF do exist under FFESSM, so no reinventing is needed. The rules are pretty much the same as under AIDA. The diffeneces are in details like grabbing, pulling, turns, protocol, etc, but most French judges know both rules quite well.

osusim said:
As for DYN if an AIDA athlete swam e.g. 110,82 m the result will be 110m. If CMAS athlete stroke a stick to 110,82m the result will be 110,82m. How can you compare beathlone (diving with stick) with other diving? And I wonder where CMAS atletes will keep stick during DNF? rofl

FFESSM freedivers do not dive with any sticks. As I wrote, the discipline is pretty much identical under both federations.

osusim · May 5, 2009

So, It 's more like 3 teams at one field with own rules and judges during the same game: rugby, american football and socker. And I have no clue who is better even if I look to score table.

trux · May 5, 2009

Osusim, you are really an exceptionally negative person. And this is not the first time I observe it. You stand totally isolated in your negative view of this competition. I have yet to meet a freediver who would not find the idea excellent.

The coming competition may well show a new way how to ridicule the CMAS discriminatory rule (CA 151) disqualifying competitors who participated in a competition not organized by CMAS. French freedivers were disqualified already several times because of that rule, and the French federation FFESSM even filed a suit against the CMAS because of it. Well, I still do not understand why the French CMAS delegation voted in support of the discriminatory rule, but that's another story.

So if all (or most) future French competitions allow competing under the rules of your choice, CMAS can shove their disqualification rule up their a**. And in France it won't be any problem, organizing competitions under both sets of rules, because thanks to the agreement between AIDA and FFESSM, judges who are certified by one federation, are recognized by the other too.

I am just curious about the reaction of CMAS. At this AIDA/FFESSM competition, there will be also the French champion from 2008 and 2009 and CMAS WR holder - Fred Sessa. The wording of the discriminatory rule may be interpreted in several ways, so now if CMAS want to save their face, they will have to try disqualifying him. If they don't, they show the rule is ridicule and should remove it immediately.

I think it is a very smart way to sabotage the oppressive CMAS.

trux · May 5, 2009

And in fact, I think the organizer could go even further than just letting the competitors to chose which rule they want to follow. I see absolutely no problem in having the performances validated under both federations in the same time. As far as the competitor respects both sets of rules, which is very well possible, I see no reason why the result could not be validated and ranked at both organizations.

osusim · May 5, 2009

trux said:
Osusim, you are really an exceptionally negative person. And this is not the first time I observe it. You stand totally isolated in your negative view of this competition. I have yet to meet a freediver who would not find the idea excellent.

Well, I proud of good results in all 3 camps. But I cannot compare results of even DYN 150m and 160m made by different rules. At list ask opinion of other judges and you'll find who is really isolated here.

trux · May 5, 2009

The distance or the time are pretty much comparable. And the majority of performances could be validated under both sets of rules. Only if there is some rule violation (grabbing, pulling, late departure, immersion after the limit distance, surfacing on turns, samba,...) penalizations will differ. Still, I see no problem with comparing these results. And if you (or anyone else) do, then simply ignore results from the other camp - each result will finally go to the respective ranking, so I really do not understand why you have such a problem with it.

And yes, I already heard the opinion of a bigger number of judges, and they are all rather happy about the idea.

Kars · May 5, 2009

Hi Everyone,

Allow me to put forward something I've already put forward at the DB tread concerning the Italian combined Evolution cup and it's embrace of both CMAS and AIDA.

While the discussion here currently centres around the different rule sets of each organisation, I would like to focus in on a bigger part of the picture,

the amalgamation - fusion - of all organisations into one.

To me it's clear that there is a movement, towards that direction, but -

is it desirable?

Organisations go through phases; from the initial set-up by passionate caring people to a non-functioning corrupt centralised totalitarian one, ruled by people without conscious and empathy.
Knowing this, I am very happy to have a practical choice, the freedom to leave an organisation when I don't feel at home there, and join it's true more healthy competitor.

I sense this combined competition phenomena is a stepping stone, an acclimation towards the union of CMAS and AIDA. - Something I would regret very much to witness.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

trux · May 6, 2009

I do not think that this is a step toward merging AIDA and CMAS. That won't happen so easily. It is about abolishing the discriminatory rule disqualifying AIDA competitors from CMAS events.

In the current state the waste majority of people has practically no choice anyway. In most lands freediving clubs are organized by AIDA, and there are no CMAS competitions there anyway. And in the other ones, like France and Italy, practically all clubs are under CMAS (FFESSM in France). If the were not, they would not get access to the pool, and may have many more legislative problems.

So your fear about losing the choice is void, because there is practically no choice anyway. The little choice there may be in some countries where both CMAS and AIDA are active and organize competitions, the choice there is eliminated by the discriminatory rule at CMAS. OK, you can still decide where you start competing, but once you select AIDA, you are banned from CMAS.

Kars · May 6, 2009

When the goal is to coerce CMAS of abolishing their oppressive exclusion rule, I suggest the following:

1 - Organise a BIG AIDA Competition for CMAS divers, affordable, including depth.

2 - Have many, many CMAS athletes, including the top 3 ranking.

3 - Have plenty of MEDIA coverage, a CMAS diver doing an AIDA record would be very helpful!

4 - Have a press conference with famous Freedivers (Like Guilliaume Nery and Stephan Mifsud) mention it's a event to support the freedom for CMAS freedivers who face the injustice of exclusion because of participating at another freediving competition.

5 - Have a positive slogan like; "freedom for CMAS freedivers" to be repeated many times, in the competition name, on banners, by the interviewed divers, in the media.

This will force CMAS to act as a totalitarian dictatorship or back off and abolish their unjust rules.

Trux, your organisation qualities could be very useful to bring the CMAS divers together including the vital top ranking known names, to dive for freedom of CMAS freedivers.

The 'combined' competition is like a weak compromise that won't do much other than say: "please master, we like to compete together". - it's doomed to be ignored.

Strength and brave bold action cannot be ignored, it's what is needed, will be respected, though they would never admit it.

Considering everyone's limited time and energy, having already a member majority supporting the idea for CMAS freedom,
BOLD action is by far the most efficient:
Organise a big AIDA competition for CMAS divers.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

ps: it's a pity I don't speak sufficient French to communicate this message to the CMAS divers. Maybe I'll get it translated, where can I post this to get the biggest CMAS diver audience? Where do the they hang out?

trux · May 6, 2009

I do not think that your proposal would change anything. There are already plenty of big AIDA competitions that CMAS divers can attend, and they often indeed do. They can attend depth disciplines and even STA and DNF without any risk, because CMAS does not have them, hence the disqualificative rule does not apply. Only DYN is actually affected by it.

I do not think that the competitions should turn into a war between AIDA and CMAS, one trying to take away competitors from the other. It is CMAS setting the restrictions, but still there are a big number of divers in CMAS countries who prefer competing under CMAS (if they have to chose), hence they have to avoid AIDA competitions (at least in DYN). Having combined competitions like this one would bypass the limitation, and any freediver could attend any competition as far as he can chose what rules to be judged under. Perfect and very simple solution to make the CMAS discriminative rule useless.

Kars · May 6, 2009

1) With two different set of rules you cannot have one fair ranking results list and winner.
2) With CMAS divers submitting to the CMAS exclusion rule by still doing dynamic under CMAS rules, they are still submitting their personal freedom in fear of Exclusion. This is NOT civil disobedience, but submitting.
3) On the positive, I see of the combined competition is familiarisation and bonding of freedivers and exchange of ideas of the different associations.

My proposal is to help CMAS freedivers to force the abolition of the CMAS exclusion rule. -
NOT about promoting an AIDA - CMAS conflict.*

Therefore it can be any association rules other than CMAS judging a big competition that includes dynamic. (thanks for the head's up!)

One cannot be civil disobedient and obey the unjust rule at the same time.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

*Like I stated before, I prefer to have more associations over a monopoly.

trux · May 6, 2009

Kars said:
1) With two different set of rules you cannot have one fair ranking results list and winner..

So you'll have two of them. Who cares? Finally you told yourself that you prefer choice over monopoly. What's important is that we can participate.

Kars said:
2) With CMAS divers submitting to the CMAS exclusion rule by still doing dynamic under CMAS rules, they are still submitting their personal freedom in fear of Exclusion. This is NOT civil disobedience, but submitting.

Again: who cares about disobedience? The goal is to do what you want, regardless of some stupid bureaucrats. If you manage doing it by tricking them out, so why not? Sooner or later they recognize the futility and the uselessness of the rule, and abolish it anyway.

osusim · May 6, 2009

trux said:
Who cares?

10-15% of all athletes at every competition disqualified by the rules. And they will care very much if other athlete will win common competition under other rules with same behavior and worst performed result. It's just ridiculous to compare them.
e.g. for me missing of verbal I'm OK is clear near BO status of competitor and so on.

trux · May 6, 2009

Freedivers who attend the competition know the conditions and the rules in advance. If they think that one of the rule sets is more advantageous than the other, they can freely chose that one. So I really see no reason why disqualification because of rules violation should upset you more than at any other competition. Quite oppositely, you have more choice, and can select the rules you find easier for yourself.

And yes, missing verbal OK is disqualificative under both federations. Before you start criticizing, you should perhaps get more information first. And finally if someone does not like the idea, nobody forces anyone to attend. But seeing that there are 44 inscribed athletes just 4 days after opening the inscriptions, including some top guns, it looks like there are plenty of freedivers who do not have any problems in competing in this heterogeneous competition.

Common AIDA / FFESSM (CMAS) competition

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