Conservation, environment and ethics.

[devondave]

Hello folks,
we're trying out a new thread, based loosely on the three titles above.
Here you can post anything vaguely to do with these topics, anything that might be of interest to other db users, has just generally attracted your interest or got you hopping-mad.

We understand these can be emotive subjects and not all db members share the same views. Therefore we ask that you be especially aware of the no personal attacks rule on db.
Lively and even heated debate is to be expected and indeed, encouraged, but this thread will be closely monitored for any personal abuse. :martial

It is hoped we'll get a wide range of subjects, shark fining, pollution, ocean acidification, plastic rubbish, minimum fish sizes, bag limits, over-fishing, which are 'sport fish' and which not, conservation projects, clean-up campaigns, etc, etc.

Well, let's see how it goes . . .

 

[devondave]

Here's one to start with:
Eating the Lionfish: Scientific American Podcast

 

[Simos]

Instead of trying to restore the numbers of groupers etc, let's overfish the lion fish and everything will be fine lol

While might help control populations in the short term I have to admit there is something bothering me about that logic...

The way I understand things (and i am no expert so go easy on me!), we started from the top predators and eating our way down the food chain and each time we remove a top predator a species lower down the chain booms in population... until we eat it too.

Unless we change something, in 30-40 years we'll probably be eating worms and jelly fish lol

 

[devondave]

Simos,
did you read the comment left underneath?

 

[Simos]

Yes Dave, but I am not qualified enough to know if lion fish are causing damage to the reef or not. I had read in the past about this 'problem'. In my naive head removing one more species from the reef won't help - I am guessing nature stands better chances than us to restore balance...

It's more likely that lion fish are a bigger problem to people, not the reef. If left alone long enough, things should be ok...

Having said this, there are people that actually know a lot about this specific case and I guess it might help if we switch to eating lion fish instead of grouper etc, to speed up the process a bit. What do you think?

 

[devondave]

I don't really know enough about it to comment, but I would like to eat one, just to taste.

 

[ReefTroll]

It could be like Fiji and their crown of thorns starfish "problem" which turned out not to be an issue at all

 

[devondave]

It could be like Fiji and their crown of thorns starfish "problem" which turned out not to be an issue at all

Could you explain that a bit more?
Most places I've been they get treated like the Anti-Christ.

 

[Simos]

Did you guys ever watch that documentary, 'the end of the line'? If I remember correctly it was talking about Canada and how cod was completely fished out.. That lead to a population explosion of lobsters and now they're catching lobsters instead (until they run out!)

Haven't tried lionfish but I'd be too stressed to handle them - aren't they supposed to be super poisonous?

 

[devondave]

Something from the db article bot:-

Shark fin bans - a wave of conservation efforts | DeeperBlue.com

 

[superdude171]

Hi all, as part of my degree in environmental science we looked at the Lionfish invasion in the reefs around Florida. They were most likely introduced by some muppet letting one go from and aquarium or possibly from storm damage to a public aquarium. Either way, they are voracious predators with few if any natural predators of their own in America. To some extent they take the ecological niche or Groupers, they also consume masses of juvenile fish and crustaceans of many species which reduces overall bio diversity. It is likely that now that they are there they will be impossible to remove completely. Eating the lionfish is one way to try and cap their numbers, they are a completely invasive species so there is no problem at all eating them, this might even reduce pressure on other native species. Their threat to humans is very low as divers are well educated and people dive with them in their native range in the south pacific. They have spread at an astonishing rate in the few years since they were introduced and it seems the only boundaries are caused by water temperature to the North. Hope this helps, sorry about the essay.

Greg.

 

[SurfnSpear]

UK has discarded £1bn in cod from one stock in last 50 years
01 August 2011
New research from independent think-tank nef (the new economics foundation) reveals that the UK has, from just one cod stock, thrown away enough fish to support 711 jobs for 46 years. The results show how more selective fishing could halt this waste and result in more fish, revenues and jobs for all.


UK has discarded £1bn in cod from one stock in last 50 years | the new economics foundation

 

[devondave]

Have you read cod by Mark Kurlansky?
It has a big chunk on the Grand Banks, but also the history of cod fishing around the world. It's a good book.
Just one more thing we've made a complete bollocks of.

 

[bobdonny]

Unless we change something, in 30-40 years we'll probably be eating worms and jelly fish lol

I agree with this unfortunately!

But closer to home, we probably should look at how we spearfish...

We claim that it is the most conservationally (is that a word???) method of fishing... release and catch etc. But this is only true of a ethical spearfisherman.

If we target one or two species and within that group only go for the biggest we are decimating the stocks of that fish.... and once their numbers reduce, the next species down on the food chain will take over and maybe prevent the initial fish from recovering...

I think spearfishermen can do more damage than we let on... perhaps its inconsequential compared to trawlers, but damage none the less...

 

[agbiv]

Almost every single introduced (accidental or deliberate) species has shown to be a major pain and some disasters. Whether birds, ants, plants, fish, mollusks or mega fauna they all have impacted their respective environs negatively. Sometimes the system copes and sometimes not.

As for Lionfish--I'll spear and eat them with relish...not chutney relish but enjoyment relish. I will follow advice I saw on Youtube to super chill them, which negates the poison in the spines. The fillets are supposed to equal snapper.

I wish I could have seen imperical data on the comments that Lionfish are benificial to the reefs.

 

[agbiv]

Take a look at the recovery of Red Drum aka "Redfish" along the Gulf of Mexico coast. Overfished to near permanent depletion--commercial fishing banned, limits placed, captive breeding and stocking initiated and a huge rebound. Cobia and mutton snapper are being farm raised now. Maybe we should look at grouper reintroduction and limits.

 

[BigShot]

Agbiv - you need empirical data? Surely common sense would be enough.
Lionfish eat everything, therefore fewer fish feeding off the reef creatures and fewer fish getting in the way of divers who want to see the reef.
Ergo, lionfish are beneficial to the reef.
What more is there to consider?

 

[cdavis]

Lionfish is an interesting case. The automatic assumption is that they are a negative factor in the Caribbean. I'll certainly be glad to eat the big ones and have already been killing the little ones where I find them. But, I've never seen any data that demonstrates that they are a negative. Seems like it is all assumption. A reasonable assumption, but that's all it is, so far. They are certainly spreading super fast, but is that because they have no predators or because there is so much food available because people have essentially exterminated grouper in the Caribbean and severely reduced the snappers. If it is the latter, Lionfish might well be the savior of Caribbean coral ecosystems by replacing predators that have been removed. I've seen one comment that suggested that reefs with lots of lionfish seemed healthier than those without. Its well past time to do some real research and find out.

Connor

 

[agbiv]

Connor I agree with the sensible approach and study the situation. BigShot the common sense reaction of the community at large doesn't usually pan out. Look at Kudzu in the USA. 1. We had an erosion problem. 2. Let's find a plant the will be a fast growing ground cover and hold soil in place. 3. Stand still for a bit and it'll grow all over you!

As I dive I will take any and all Lionfish until proven beneficial. :martialHowever the argument over one introduced species is like looking at a single bump on the back and ignoring that it could be melanoma. The big picture is what we've done to the reef population, and health, as a whole. :head

 

[BigShot]

Yea, I was joking around about common sense. "There's nothing common about it" and all that. Hence the bit about lionfish stopping the other fish blocking the view divers have of the reef.
I'm right with you on the melanoma point. We've done far worse than move species around... though moving species around has proved kinda disasterous in many places... my closest example being the near eradication of the native european red squirrel (atimid, small, benign and tremendously cute creature) by disease and competition from its larger, aggressive and horribly destructive American* cousin, the grey.
The red survives in a couple of isolated pockets in England and in larger numbers in Scotland, but without a major program of Grey eradication nothing will change, the reds will continue to falter and songbirds will continue to decline.
The grey is only part of the problem though habitat damage is a huge and far more difficult to fix issue.


* I can't help laughing about that. "One of my best friends is American" - but I love the banter between these countries and being able to say all that followed by "American" is always a pleasure. Of course, the insinuation that the natives of these islands are a load of ginger-haired weaklings who can't compete with the Americans is equally funny.