Contraction pyramids - thoughts?

[Simos]

I don't really like tables so I've been playing around with the below concept/exercise (I view it like a 'contraction pyramid') - I haven't seen it anywhere before in this form so would be interesting to get some feedback on whether you think it can be effective or if you have done it before, whether it helped.

It goes like this (no of contractions and no of pauses per inhalation/exhalation should be adjusted to get a sustainable rate):

1. FRC hold until first three contractions

2. Take half a breath and hold until 3 contractions

3. Fill lungs and hold until 3 contractions

4. Breathe out until half full and hold for 3 contractions

5. Breathe out rest of the air and hold for 3 contractions

Repeat from step #2 and keep going in a loop. If you want you can increase the no of contractions with every loop or if too hard you can decrease.

The advantage for me is that you don't waste time like in tables ventilating nor waiting for contractions to kick in - instead you can pretty much decide that you will take contractions for X minutes and just train for a few minutes in taking contractions.

It's easy to play with the numbers/parameters and make it so that you can just take light contractions for X minutes or take harder contractions for X minutes and so on.

 

[ReefTroll]

It looks fairly interesting to my amateur eyes. Would be worth having a go.

 

[Simos]

Yes - I don't think it'll be more effective than tables etc, just something different to try. If you just have 5-6mins to train, at least with this you can do something.

Also no idea if it would be dangerous in any way, obviously try it dry and all the usual Freediving precautions apply.

I think O2 levels should be fine as you are essentially breathing (maybe comin down the pyramid will lower O2 if you are aggressive with the holds) and CO2 levels should elevate and then stay constant (depends how aggressive you are with the holds but the idea is that CO2 stays roughly constant or increases slowly)

 

[pingshui]

I really like your idea! Tables are the most boring thing ever, but this might be a nice change once in a while

 

[Siku]

Do your contractions stop and then start again after each of the exhales?

 

[Kars]

Nice idea Simos!

 

[sgnips]

you're not taking pauses between the holds, right?
is it kinda long hold but with half inhale/exhales in it?
sounds like a CO2 table

looks interesting, i'll sure give it a try

how long have you been practicing it? did you find any benefit?
surely the short time needed would be a great benefit, if this thing actually works

 

[Simos]

you're not taking pauses between the holds, right?
is it kinda long hold but with half inhale/exhales in it?
sounds like a CO2 table

looks interesting, i'll sure give it a try

how long have you been practicing it? did you find any benefit?
surely the short time needed would be a great benefit, if this thing actually works

No pauses at all Gabriele - I've only done it a couple of times so far. I thought i'd ask to see if it could be effective.

Contractions stop for a few seconds during the inhale phase but as soon as I hold they start.

I guess it's a bit like yogic breathing with retention at full exhale/inhale but with an added retention in the middle and longer retentions to get contractions going. Starting with the FRC hold is just for time saving (earlier contractions).

Don't know how much it helps but psychologically it helps as you can sustain it and it's not too long.

 

[sgnips]

hi Simos,
i tried it with two friends yesterday evening, after 80 mins of pretty hard work (swimming, dnf reps, etc), so it was a nice prelude for contractions to come soon

in a word, this workout brought some of the WORST SENSATIONS EVER i had in a dive...

let's also say i almost never trained frc dives, so it's something pretty new for me

the first hold was nice and quite long (maybe near to 2 mins, not sure) and taking air in for the following two holds was very easy (about 1'30 plus another 2')
the problems began on the exhale part, the fourth hold being really tough (maybe 30-40") so that exhaling to begin the fifth, my face refused to submerge again and i stopped...

anyway, i'm gonna try it again as it looks good for training the mind

 

[Siku]

sgnips, that's quite a wrte-up, sounds horrific!

Were you doing these as static dives in the pool, coming up to exhale/inhale?

Or were you doing some sort of 'dynamic pyramid'?

 

[Simos]

Hi Gabriele - interesting to hear your experience! I can't get pool time at the moment so I only tried the above dry but don't see why it would be much different in the pool (apart from FRC holds which can be a bit unnerving if you are not used to them, not least because you might sink to a different position if you have no suit on).

My holds were a lot shorter than yours, once I got contractions going on the first FRC hold (~45s-1m) then doing the inhale holds brought contractions on quite soon (maybe 1-1:30). I knew that going back 'down' the pyramid was going to be harder so I didn't push the inhale holds much. Going down the pyramid was tougher but the holds were much shorter as I was getting contractions literally after 15-20s.

After I did one full round basically all the holds more or less were short as contractions seemed to start a few seconds into each hold but I was able to keep it up for several rounds, eventhough the holds were quite short.

I enjoy FRC holds but it's true that contractions on FRC can be a lot more intense and if you are in the water it can be annoying when you come up to breathe because you might end up taking some water in and coughing. It's quite challenging though to try and gives different sensations I found.

If you try it again, maybe keep the inhale holds a bit shorter (or even the initial FRC hold) - it'll make it possible to balance it with the exhale holds better and make it possible to keep going. Worth trying because after the first 'round' I found that the sensations were different (I could just manage short holds but I was getting contractions almost right away).

 

[pingshui]

Ok, I tried the pyramid, dry, sitting.

The first FRC cycle was horrible in terms of contractions. But the next cycles contractions were nor as severe, although they came way earlier. I continued the cycle for approx. 12 minutes. At that point I felt like I could have still continued, but a fear of CO2-headache finally set in, as I had problems with those a couple times already and don't want that today
Anyway, I am not sure if this is very effective. The struggle is bigger in the conventional tables, but at least a pyramid is not as boring. I think I will try it again lying the next days and see what happens...

 

[Simos]

Ok, I tried the pyramid, dry, sitting.

The first FRC cycle was horrible in terms of contractions. But the next cycles contractions were nor as severe, although they came way earlier. I continued the cycle for approx. 12 minutes. At that point I felt like I could have still continued, but a fear of CO2-headache finally set in, as I had problems with those a couple times already and don't want that today
Anyway, I am not sure if this is very effective. The struggle is bigger in the conventional tables, but at least a pyramid is not as boring. I think I will try it again lying the next days and see what happens...

Yes I am not sure how effective it is either pingshui, especially given than you can't (or maybe shouldn't) go on for too long. I did about 7-8 mins... There is definitely some psychological training going on...

I am thinking maybe I should modify them a little so that I take more contractions on the inhale holds and less holds on the exhale holds (ie going back down the pyramid).

Also don't know how safe it is going down the pyramid or how much CO2 builds up - in any case for any wet holds is a must to have a competent buddy, and for exercises like this an even bigger must (if there is such a thing as a bigger must but you know what I mean).

For anyone who enjoys this, try this if you haven't already: http://forums.deeperblue.com/static-dynamic/90706-odd-static-training-exercise.html
It's one of my favourite exercises.

 

[pingshui]

The "odd-exercise" seems to be suitable for hypoxic training, if I understand it right. I fear I am still at the point where CO2 tables help the most and that's what I should be doing. But, for a change I can try to magically increase my PB if everything else isn't working Will be worth a try, even of it is only against boredom right now. When should I start adding 02 tables to my training anyway??? (Practicing for 15 month now, stuck at approx. 4:30)

 

[Simos]

The "odd-exercise" seems to be suitable for hypoxic training, if I understand it right. I fear I am still at the point where CO2 tables help the most and that's what I should be doing. But, for a change I can try to magically increase my PB if everything else isn't working Will be worth a try, even of it is only against boredom right now. When should I start adding 02 tables to my training anyway??? (Practicing for 15 month now, stuck at approx. 4:30)

I am personally not 100% sure the 'odd exercise' will necessarily be hypoxic training for everyone because it really depends on the profile of the holds (ie how much time you spend in the early holds vs the later holds). Having said this, I think that the best way to practice it would be probably with an oxymeter like Eric says, trying to keep the O2 % constant... But whether you do that or not it's basically essentially a max hold with a twist, so I wouldn't say that it will only help only those limited by O2, it should help everyone as max holds would do anyway.

Regarding your question on O2 tables - I would start them if I were you and check if they help you, perhaps do 1 O2 table for every 3 CO2 tables you do so that your main focus is still on CO2 tolerance...

 

[sgnips]

i was in the pool, no suit, also not worried by the unusual position my body was taking

at the beginning of the first hold i was wondering how long would i hold breath, but the answer was "for three contractions", so no doubt on this: if you come out sooner, you might be cheating
please note my attempt came after a bit of hard training and maybe not enough motivation to make several rounds
i guess next time i'm gonna make it as first part of the session (or maybe next time will be this evening on the sofa... uhm... )

 

[pingshui]

Thanks for the help! Hopefully progress sets in soon, because training and not getting anywhere is annoying. Experimenting around with different tables is a good idea now.

 

[constantine]

hi guys, any updates or training progress`?

 

[pingshui]

Progress seems to be coming slowly, although I am still quite far from my former PB.

What I noticed is a little strange. The "one-breath-inbetween" CO2-tables had a rather negative effect on me. Instead of delaying contractions in statics or dynamics they now came way earlier, at 1:15 instead of 2:15. This is not what I desired, but at least contractions seem to be more gentle during the first minute of the struggle phase.

So now I don't do one-breath-tables any more and my contractions begin at 1:30, hopefully I can delay that even more.

 

[constantine]

hi pingshui, i think its normal. i noticed the same after a longer time Co2 training! i think the body will go to be more alkaline (correct me if iam wrong) and he addapt to that "low O2-inhale".
For sure u have an effect, but this is more like resistants about the contraction time. now u can go for longer holds. my experience was that the struggle phase becomes longer and it starts not earlier.

have fun