control of the soft palate

[aris ioannidis]

Hi! I realize after a long time that I cannot keep my soft palate in neutral position. As a result, I cannot take advantage of the mouthfill and my deep dives are always limited by equalization.

I take and keep the mouthfill but i cannot use the air from my cheeks. To equalize i only use the air from my lungs and i can equalize down to 50m and usually make it to 60 without any equalizations in the last several meters. I always turn before hurting my ears.

I have tried several dry exercises (from Andrea Zuchari's dvd and Federico Mana's book) but i cannot get it. I fill my cheeks, close the glottis and pinch the nose. Then, i release the nose but the air in my cheeks stays blocked by the soft palate. I can shallow the air from my mouth by opening the glottis and then exhale from my nose but i cannot send the air directly from my mouth to my nose.

It is very frustrating to have the apnea capacity but not the analogous depth! :vangry Any suggestions please?

 

[Simos]

As you know i don't dive deep and i am no expert but a few thoughts Ari:

The glottis and soft palate movements are naturally linked, it takes a bit of practice to 'unlink' them (ie have glottis closed and soft palate neutral). I am sure you can start doing it right away though, try the following:

Take deep breath in (or you could do exactly the opposite and get all the air out of the lungs), close the glottis keeping the air in your lungs and have your mouth open. Now, try to open and close the soft palate, without letting the air from your lungs out (keep mouth open). Can you do it?

If you are feeling the soft palate moving up-down and the air is still in your lungs, you are basically doing it. You can then try the same with lips closed and cheeks fully inflated - it'll be a bit harder but focus on finding again that soft-palate movement as you did earlier and as soon as you move the soft palate, your cheeks will deflate. It'll feel clumsy at first but once you do it once you can just practice until it's easy...

By the way, don't try to 'actively' push the air through your cheeks to your nose, that will only make you close the soft palate - just focus on relaxing the soft palate and the air will just flow out by itself 'passively' (if that makes sense)

 

[Simos]

By the way, how do you equalise down to 50m?

I take and keep the mouthfill but i cannot use the air from my cheeks. To equalize i only use the air from my lungs

The above does not make sense I think, I suspect you are doing something different... If you are taking and keeping a mouthfil you should no longer be able to use any air from your lungs - by mouthfil, do you mean 'inflate your cheeks'? (because that's not really a mouthfil if he glottis is not closed)

 

[Simos]

Also another tip - once you manage to let the air 'flow out' of your cheeks and you think that you have your soft palate neutral (while glottis is closed), you can test whether this is the case by trying to inflate your cheeks again. If your soft palate is indeed neutral, you should not be able to inflate your cheeks (as the air will just be flowing out through the nose).

By the way I just made all these up to try to help, hope it makes sense

There is I believe another method involving a balloon but try this way first, I think it might be easier to get it...

 

[Simos]

I flooded you but if you can't release the soft-palate during the above (cheeks inflated) try touching the tip of your tongue on the base of your bottom front teeth, it might just realise it...

By the way even after all the above, I think that the soft-palate position is probably not the main issue so I think it's important first to understand how you are currently equalising, what you are trying to do and what exactly happens that doesn't allow you to do it...

Maybe one thing to try could be to get in a pool, empty your lungs at the surface and feel your cheeks and try to keep the mouthfil by closing the glottis and sink to the bottom and try to equalise using the air in your mouth. (obviously be careful with lungs if the pool is deepish and you are really on empty)

 

[rovanpera]

A good option would be to do a course with Andrea, Federico or the 3 day Mouthfill course with Freedive Dahab...

 

[Simos]

A good option would be to do a course with Andrea, Federico or the 3 day Mouthfill course with Freedive Dahab...

Yes I was thinking the same Ari - given your potential, it's probably worth it.

Not that it's not worth practicing in the meantime but from the little I know there are some more 'subtle' points on mouthfill anyway that can be tricky to work out alone.

Also maybe over there you could get to practice equalisation on VWT, which would make it easier to focus on the EQ technique....

 

[trullalla]

hey aris
do you do frenzel normally?
if you do frenzel you will keep your soft palate neutral while your epiglottis is closed. so there's nothing new there, the mouthfill is the same thing, just with more air in your cheeks.
the problem with some people is that after each single frenzel equalization, they open the epiglottis to let more air in the mouth, and usually these people are those who have most problems in learning mouthfill.
do you think this is what you do?

linda

 

[aris ioannidis]

wow lots of ideas, thanks Simo! I need some time to try them. I like your idea of not 'actively' pushing the air through the cheeks to the nose but focusing instead on relaxing the soft palate to allow the air to flow out by itself 'passively'

Jussi, I took the first hour of Andrea's workshop but I did not continue because i needed to manage the exercises first and I fail to do the baloon exersice where u try to release the air from the baloon u have in your mouth through your nose. That is why i think my problem starts from the soft palate control.

hey Linda, i think i equalize with frenzel; i do it by moving the jaw or with the tongue. I do not flex my abs. I do not think i open the glottis after equalizing. I start with my cheeks filled with air from the top and before each equalization I refill my cheeks with my tongue. I have an alarm at 32 so that i stop refilling after 32-35m. I then manage 2-4 more equalizations; usually i cannot equalize post 50m. I think i have air in my mouth but somehow i cannot use it. I try to relax with my chin on my chest but at best i manage to slide another 10m before having to turn. I was thinking that i do lose the air from my cheeks but now I wonder whether the problem instead is that past a certain depth i may no longer use the air from my mouth.

 

[Simos]

If you live alone (and have some time to waste), you can also try my favourite exercise for soft palate control (not me in the video):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFNd4ZyAtmg&feature=youtube_gdata_player]Circular Breathing in a cup of Water. - YouTube[/ame]

Warning: Other people watching you do this will think you are mad! But it's good fun and a good party trick lol

 

[trullalla]

hey Linda, i think i equalize with frenzel; i do it by moving the jaw or with the tongue. I do not flex my abs.

you dont need to flex your abs in order to get more air in the mouth (unless you are below residual volume) so just because you dont use your diaphragm it doesnt mean that you are not taking air up from your lungs.

I do not think i open the glottis after equalizing. I start with my cheeks filled with air from the top and before each equalization I refill my cheeks with my tongue.

where are you getting the air to fill your cheeks if not from your lungs? and also, why are you trying to fill your cheeks after each equalization?

I have an alarm at 32 so that i stop refilling after 32-35m. I then manage 2-4 more equalizations; usually i cannot equalize post 50m. I think i have air in my mouth but somehow i cannot use it. I try to relax with my chin on my chest but at best i manage to slide another 10m before having to turn. I was thinking that i do lose the air from my cheeks but now I wonder whether the problem instead is that past a certain depth i may no longer use the air from my mouth.

i think that you dont use any of the air that you have in your mouth to equalize. to me it sounds like you are getting air from the lungs after each equalization and that of course, after 45/50 meters you cant do that anymore.
i think that your problem is mainly the control of the epiglottis more than the soft palate (after all you open it every time you equalize on a dive to 60m, even though you might not have a conscious control over it).

linda