cw and leg burning

[trullalla]

hi,

i'm on my winter break, doing dry training at the gym, trying to get my legs as strong as i can!
now, what i noticed during my maximum dives is that leg burning at the end of a dive doesn't depend only on leg fitness. keeping my training consistent i still noticed that at times i end a dive with my legs completely wasted and other times i don't feel a thing. my preparation to a dive is always the same, same warm-up, same dive response to warm-up (well, that's difficult to know for sure, but that's my perception). i try to rest a lot the night before, i try to eat consistently. but i'm still not able to predict how my legs will feel at the end of the dive.
my question is: is there any other factor that have an impact of lactic acid production that i dind't consider?

another little question about training: is it bad if i do cardio and weight lifting during the same training session? (my cadio is a very easy run of 30/40min at 130/150bpm).

any opinion very very appreciated.

thanx,
linda

 

[efattah]

Even top athletes struggle with this mystery. I struggled with it, even Martin Stepanek claimed that some days his legs got much more tired than other days, without any reason.

What I have found after many years, is the following:
- There are two types of leg fatigue that happen during the ascent
A) Acid created from muscles working in a strong state of vasoconstriction
B) Acid burn caused by residual (left over) acid from previous anaerobic exercise (either previous training in the gym or pool, or previous dives on the same day or previous days)

Type 'A' fatigue (from vasoconstriction) is highly beneficial and it allows you to dive very deep. According to Seb Murat's rule, your legs should fail at the end of every deep dive. If you suffer a samba/BO and your legs didn't fail, then you weren't vasoconstricted enough. So leg fatigue is not a bad thing.

However, Type 'B' leg fatigue is very bad. It is caused by left over acid from previous exercise or previous dives.

So, anything which affects your vasoconstriction level, or any previous exercise or dives you have done in previous days, both affect your leg fatigue.

Examples:
- Doing lots of walking or cardio on the same day of diving, or being very hot before getting in the water, can vasodilate you, and reduce vasoconstriction, sometimes REDUCING leg fatigue (at the expense of increased O2 consumption; this is not desirable)
- Doing exercise or dives, then diving the next day or the day after, you may still have left over acid in your muscles. Generally, to clear your legs of acid, requires at least 3 full rest days or more; some divers like David Lee would get massages to help eliminate 'residual' lactic acid.
- Fear (being scared) during the dive or before the dive, increases vasoconstriction and will result in higher leg fatigue, but this is a good effect
- Likewise, NOT BEING SCARED and being very relaxed can prevent vasoconstriction and reduce leg fatigue, at the expense of higher O2 consumption

Analyze your journal and see what you did on the three or four days BEFORE the dive which caused the leg fatigue, or similarly, on the days before the dive which didn't cause fatigue. You should be able to find a pattern.

 

[pat fish]

Hi Linda!
We missed you while swimming with a dolphin mom and baby in the BH three weeks ago :inlove ...

I noticed the same in my deep diving. Sometimes I think my legs are completely wasted at the end of a dive and sometimes they feel quite ok. I ascribed it to different levels of vasoconstriction. And yes, it's probably related not only to warmup but also to the level of relaxation/anxiety in the (last phase) of the descent.
What you can do is well known already. specific training (like intervals or weight lifting for tolerance to high levels of lactic acid), healthy food, lots of sleep and 1 day or more of rest before deep diving. Concerning cardio and weight lifting I wouldn't bother too much, but if you're considering longer cardio units like 1h or more I would do it seperately.

Take care, hope to dive with you soon...
Pat

 

[trullalla]

hi,
thanks for replies!

eric:how can you tell after a dive if your leg fatigue is type 1 or 2?
i'm really not good at saying if i had a strong vasoconstriction during a cw dive (unlike during fi, where i feel pins and needles all over my legs and arms). so, if i have lactic acid and a clear head, it can mean that i had a good dive response, but it can also mean that i was just not close to my O2 limit and that the leg fatigue was due to something else...
unfortunately my log book is very detailed about the dives, food and how much i sleep, but i don't log my gym sessions....so i'm not able to check on that. but usually i have around 60/70 hours between gym and deep diving.

patrick: it's always the same!!! things are happening always when i'm away!
this is the third time that dolphins are there when i'm not! it's not fair!
when are you going to be back in dahab?

cheers,
linda

 

[kingohyes]

Very interesting:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/19_lactate.shtml

Something to think about when your legs burn..

 

[Mullins]

Unfortunately O2 is required to metabolise lactate, which isn't much good for us as freedivers... the bit about cells burning some of their own lactate and thus producing less is also not quite relevant for the same reason. We should get pretty good at making use of it/getting rid of it between dives though, which is good news Going by what they say, freedivers who train long dives/dynamics all the time would get high levels of lactate transporter protein, lactate dehydrogenase and mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase which wouldn't be of much use during a dive but which would kick in big-time as soon as they start breathing again.

I wonder if there are any specific implications in this for the way freedivers should train? Shortish aerobic swims between long dives to burn up the excess lactate?

Re. burning legs on deep dives - I have experienced the same thing, although I can generally tell on the way down if I will have a painful trip back or not. If my legs start feeling increasingly tight and weak from 50m onwards amd I get a strong gripping sensation in the small of my back on the left side it means they'll be burning even as I kick off the bottom. That's why I often look like an epileptic snake as I near the surface - my legs have just about gone entirely and my abs are the only bits left to kick with :crutch When a dive feels easy and relaxed all the way down I often get a bit worried, even bail out early because it doesn't seem right.