Dangers of Packing?

[jome]

Is there any real data or studies done about the long term effects of packing to the lung? I might have asked this before, but to this date I've not received a satisfactory reply.

I'm not talking about taking a few gulps of air to counter the pressure from a wetsuit. I'm talking about the kind of "extreme packing" you would see world class static guys doing.

The more I think (and do) it, the more counterintuitive it seems, that it could possibly not be extremely unhealthy. I know alot of other divers that seem to be coming to this conclusion, but why is no one talking about it?

Would there be a reliable method of studying for example the damage on the alveoli of a person who's streched his TLC from 8 to over 12 litres? Have any such studies been done?

I haven't measured my own TLC, but I can feel that it has grown, and the difference is not subtle. I didn't used to need almost 8 kg of weights on just a swimsuit to be neutral. Another disturbing thing I've noticed is, that my RV seems to have grown. These days I will stay a float on passive exhale after a session of packing. Who doesn't find this alarming?

I guess what I'm saying is, be careful with packing. Moderately done I'm sure it's ok, but taken to excess, it's kind of the "dark side" of apnea. It will take you to very impressive results very fast and seem like an answer to every problem (equalization at depth, apnea time, poor technique), but in my mind we really don't know what it's doing to you.

Or if someone does, please do tell...

I don't think being able to hold my breath for 8 minutes is cool enough to justify walking around with an o2 tank when I'm 50.

 

[Rémi]

My Understanding is that alveolis are like small springs. You compress them when expelling, and extend them when you breath. Being a spring they should come back to position when you release the pressure, helping you to expel the air.
With packing you stretch the spring to a bite more than the max, so your spring goes above it's yield limit, and it won't come back to it's nominal length. That is why the residual volume increases.
That's also what might make you need a O2 tank when you are 50. As your alveolis don't have the spring effect any more, they are not going to help you expelling anymore...

However, this might take a lot of packs before to happen, and might happen only due to the fatigue of the alveolis with time.

Another thing, is that apparently alveolis are like brain cells, you have a given number of them by 20, then you can only have less and less. So each time you burst one (packing) or collapse one (lung squeeze) it is gone.

But I am also concerned about effect on heart and blood pressure.
I thought it gave high pressure, but I think I read yesterday the opposite....
Can someone confirm high or low pressure?
At the moment it is what stops me packing a lot... after about 12, I feel very light headed !!

 

[Jason Billows]

Just a quick note about alveoli...

I believe that our lungs have a number of inactive alveoli that are not used regularly. When we damage part of our lungs and destroy alveoli, the inactive ones become active and take over the job of the ones you have lost.

Can anyone confirm this.

 

[naiad]

I asked the same question a few months ago on [ame=http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=59016]this[/ame] thread and there was no conclusive answer. Maybe the technique of heavy packing hasn't been around long enough for anyone to know the long term effects.

Lucia

 

[pat fish]

But I am also concerned about effect on heart and blood pressure.
I thought it gave high pressure, but I think I read yesterday the opposite....
Can someone confirm high or low pressure?

I have no access to data/proves but packing should decrease blood pressure due to decreased left ventrical cardiac output (a sudden drop in pressure seems to be the main reason for packing blackouts) under increased intra thoracic pressure. However, packing physiology is a complex phenomenon which may also lead to an increase in blood pressure due to tension in the arterial system.
check out some thoughts about susceptibility to BO from packing here:
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=61867"]Susceptibility to Packing Blackout[/ame]

...wild theories about alveolis... Increase in TLC comes from increased flexibility of the thorax due to adaptation to pack-stretching (intracostal muscles and diaphragm).
Today we know few about long turn effects of excessive packing. Maybe all recent active packing freedivers turn out to get a pendulous abdomen in 20 years... :crutch


yours
Pat

 

[naiad]

Another thing, is that apparently alveolis are like brain cells, you have a given number of them by 20, then you can only have less and less. So each time you burst one (packing) or collapse one (lung squeeze) it is gone.

Is it really possible to burst alveoli by packing? Wouldn't it be obvious if it happened, with pain and bleeding? I haven't heard of anything like this, but maybe someone who has done a lot of heavy packing can explain.

Lucia

 

[Rémi]

Is it really possible to burst alveoli by packing? Wouldn't it be obvious if it happened, with pain and bleeding? I haven't heard of anything like this, but maybe someone who has done a lot of heavy packing can explain.

Lucia

I don't know Lucia, but they are very small, so you might not feel it if it is just a few.
But I heard of a french guy who kind of pucture his lungs badly while packing :waterwork

 

[samdive]

you wouldn't feel it as there are no nerve endings down there - but you might see some blood in your cough

 

[Cliff Etzel]

The real issue regarding packing - at least from what I have heard, is that divers get too aggressive too soon in their packing. Packing should be done on a VERY gradual basis. When I talked with Kirk Krack a few years back while attending the Advanced PFD clinic in Long Beach, packing was done on a gradual basis while stretching. Usually beginning with only 5 additional packs and then stretching the chest area to expand the rib cage to develop more flexibility. It seems too many freedivers think they need to pack huge numbers in order to get some additional benefit. A regular cardio exercise program along with reduced intake of caffeine will do more wonders than packing huge amounts. When I was seriously training, By my third set of stretches, I was packing as many as 35 gulps of air. Felt my blood pressure drop, saw stars - the whole bit. But I never do more than 10 while in the water. The risk of blackout before descending is just too great to chance - at least in my opinion (for whatever that is worth). Now I just dive for the joy of diving...

 

[jome]

Thanks for all the replys. Though I still don't feel I got a definite answer to what I was asking, but I guess the truth is that simply no one knows. So it's just up to me at the moment, do I want to take the risk.

 

[jome]

I found this article by chance:

P179-PULMONARY EFFECTS OF LUNG PACKING BY BUCCAL PUMPING IN A CHAMPION
BREATHHOLD DIVER Graham Simpson, Janine Ferns & Sebastian Murat

http://www.thoracic.org.au/abs2003/014 simpsong.doc.pdf. Only the abstract is available.

It seems to be carefully positive about packing. Hard to say I guess.