• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

defining The Perfect Breach

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

HJ

New Member
Nov 1, 2000
108
8
0
I'm starting a new thread because of Ted's (zerog) tagline of "pursue the perfect breach," which caught my eye. Don't know who is interested, but I am intrigued by the concept of humans breaching the waterline. I never really thought about it much until Ted came on here in pursuit of this idea (I apologize if I've left out others also pursuing this). And obviously, Ted's very serious about it. I couldn't find much on the SubHuman website about it, and Googling doesn't turn up a lot, although here's a good Wikipedia entry about whales breaching:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_surfacing_behaviour[/ame]
If you google "the perfect breach", here is one of the entries:
http://www.fotosearch.com/DSN013/1787703

So here's my question (rather, questions), whether for Ted or anyone else...

What defines a true human-powered breach? What is the goal? Is it 100% clearance of the water surface by the entire body and anything attached? Or 40% as with whales and Whitehead (see first link above).

Is it an "all or nothing" clearance of the whole body, or can it be a "one part at a time" breach? Like the Fosbury Flop in high-jumping where parts of the body are clearing the bar while others parts are still below it? see:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosbury_flop[/ame]

Will there be an International Association of Breaching that will set the rules? Should I be on the Rules Committee? :t

So what *is* The Perfect Breach?

Some things to ponder on a gray day from the Land of Thomas Jefferson...
 
Reactions: DeepThought
Hi Harald,

To me it is maximizing the power of the human body through proper technique, and proper mechanics and geometry of a high performance mono, to get as far out of the water as possible. In my opinion, getting complete air is possible and I am pursuing it with a passion!
 
Reactions: James Jay

Aha. Great to hear, Ted. I predict there will breaching competitions some day, with everyone breaching, but some breaching higher. Just like High Jump in Track. Maybe a laser beam will be the pole. And the sportscasters will be gushing: "Did you see that? Perfect form and 1 meter of pure air in a tight double tuck." And I'm very good at predicting the future.
 
Reactions: James Jay


Nice one. Think I'm going to get myself a membersip to the "Y" to get my pool training in for the upcoming 2008 Breach Finals. I presume I'll need a graduated pole or laser and cameraman for all deeprblue forum competitions posted here. Will there be a w/ fins class and w.o./fins class?

In all seriousness though, sounds like alot of fun and has a potentialy competative edge to it.
 
Come on, my grandmother can get higher than that using her bunny slippers... just kidding... very nice!!
 
Last edited:
Reactions: sanso
zerog said:
Come on, my grandmother can get higher than that using her bunny slippers...
Click to expand...

Hey, don't be so hard on him. He put himself on record and "set the standard". Looks to me like he actually cleared the water in a 'high jump' way. Which is why a definition is in order.

FYI, I tried a breach a la "skyhopping" in my 3-meter-deep pool with my bi-fins. Got up to my Speedos. Need a little more depth!
 
zerog said:
Come on, my grandmother can get higher than that using her bunny slippers...
Click to expand...

Of course! That's just a bait which was made using inefficient v-folding (you can see it from the video) monofin! Waiting for the result of an athlete improved by Lunocet :ko
 
if you can catch air then potentually tricks could be developed, spins/flips/etc like skateboarding/snowboarding. who will be the first to do a McTwist with a mono?
 
I've always thought this a great shot of a human breaching. It's from an advertisement for the triathlon apparel brand Orca (same brand that Trubridge likes for wetsuits):



I'm not sure if he's using a monofin or not. As monofins are not used in triathlon, he may not be, which would make this breach all the more impressive.

The few times I've played with breaching, I had a problem with my mask being dragged off my face. Of course, the solution is simply to not use a mask. But I was wondering if you guys have discussed innovations in mask design or even headwear to maximize hydrodynamics?

I'm one of the lucky individuals that jumped on the release of 10 newly-prepared Aqueons (should arrive in the mail any day now). The inventor, Calvin Gongwer, sent some interesting literature on the Aqueon's performance. In it he provides the tip that conventional dive masks contribute an enormous amount of drag to forward propulsion (perhaps up to a third of the total drag?). I believe he created a special piece of hydrodynamic headwear for use in his impressive long-distance ocean swims.

The other thing I've thought about is overcoming the drag associated with our shoulders by filling the space between the head and shoulders with some kind of material. Of course, we already achieve this by extending the arms above the head, but there are many obvious drawbacks to this (requires constant contraction of large muscles, reduces relaxation, limits chest flexibility, difficult with restraining wetsuit, some don't have the flexibility for it, etc.). Some very accomplished divers even choose to neglect extending their arms overhead on constant weight dives due to the associated oxygen consumption (e.g.: Additionally, some of the ocean's fastest creatures have relatively low girth to length ratios (e.g., tuna), certainly lower than that of an average human with his arms down.

I don't have the background in physics to begin proposing ideas for applying these principles, much less to comprehend you guys' in-depth discussion of the Lunocet and all of the complex principles it involves. So I leave it to you to develop these ideas. But I do believe that putting some focus into outfitting the head/eyewear area with hydrodynamic accessories could yield drastic improvements in underwater efficiency, and is worth pursuing in our quest to realize greater underwater self-propulsion.

Sorry if this idea has already been a topic of focus in a past thread!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've played around with breaching (haven't we all!) and when you're assisted by positive buoyancy the drag you start to incur around the head/shoulders as you reach your maximum speed in those last few metres is huge.

A covering to smooth the head/shoulder area would probably make you go heaps faster but you'd end up being more of a science experiment than a swimmer. I prefer the idea of leaving the human form pretty much intact and working on better flexibility and technique. Otherwise we'll end up wearing ever more elaborate costumes that prevent us doing anything other than swimming very fast in a straight line.

Then again, we're already making use of some pretty unnatural gear so that's just my preference.
 

That's a pretty dramatic shot. It's look staged somehow. He could be jumping off the bottom or a platform!

But here's the target to shoot for folks (see dolpin shot from Fish PDF, page 69).

And here are two pages from same Fish PDF explaining how and why this occurs. (It's called vertical jump height) (hope this shows up)

Now THAT is a breach!

HJ
 

Attachments

  • FishPDFp68CU.jpg
    140.5 KB · Views: 146
HJ said:
And here are two pages from same Fish PDF explaining how and why this occurs. (It's called vertical jump height) (hope this shows up)
Click to expand...

Oops... pages didn't show. I'll try again...
 

Attachments

  • FishPDFp68.gif
    111.1 KB · Views: 148
  • FishPDFp69.gif
    47.2 KB · Views: 143
I think he is doing a start too because his arms are not in the lock yet. Perhaps the photo is not photoshopped and a guy is jumping up from the underwater thumb.
 
Damn, way to burst my bubbles, guys. :duh

In any case, we should strive for breaches that look as good as that.
 
Laminar and I were thinking of holding an 'Aquatic High Jump' competition. Just like olympic high jump, but you must breach to clear the bar. The bar could start at the waterline, and go up 5cm at a time.

I believe the 'true' breach involves every part of the human body including the fin, to be above the water for at least an instant.

I personally believe that the world record holders for 50m & 100m finswimming could probably breach clear of the water. Freedivers are VERY FAR from reaching the speeds of those athletes. Plus, you must keep kicking even as your body exits the water. Most people stop kicking shortly after their head and arms exit.

One exercise is to 'tread water' with the mono, in the same spot, seeing how high you can keep your head & arms out of the water using only the mono.
 
efattah said:
Laminar and I were thinking of holding an 'Aquatic High Jump' competition. Just like olympic high jump, but you must breach to clear the bar. The bar could start at the waterline, and go up 5cm at a time.
Click to expand...

Now we're talking! "Aquatic High Jump" could work as an event name, but it's a bit "normal". "Aquatic Vault" is another one (from Pole Vault). "The Breach" is a little more intriguing/mysterious (Hey, I'm a marketing guy ;-)

I believe the 'true' breach involves every part of the human body including the fin, to be above the water for at least an instant.
Click to expand...

Agree. And you have to add into the rules that it is soley by human power without any use of aids, structures, etc. Researching the swimming the track&field rules (or AIDA) will yield good model language.


Yeah, this is what swimmers (regular) do for kicking training. Just think... eventually there will be Breach coaches, Breach training camps, Breaching theories (is it better to be vertical or better to approach surface at an angle? On stomach or on back?)

I'll start working on prototype design and logo for "BREACH" magazine. (and you think I'm kidding ;-)

Harald
 
My first attempts at breaching have been in 37F water. I advise against this unless you are able to completely clear the water and come back down head first.
 
Mullins said:
Looks like a guy doing a backstroke start, photoshopped onto a different background?
Click to expand...

Most likely. There's no water streaming off the arms or head like there would be in a breach.

The finswimming WR for 50m apnea is just over 14s, so about 3.5m/s or just under 13km/hr by my numbers. Does anyone want to work out whether that's enough to clear the water, velocity-wise?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…