Depth Problem

[blueface]

I seem to have a problem when using my 3 mil wet suit. It's a 2-pc farmer John and I use 12 pounds to be neutral at 15 ft. or 5 meters. I can dive to about 50 to 70 ft. and stay on the bottom for awhile but when I use 4 lbs. of weight without a wet suit I can go to 90 ft. and stay for awhile! I can't figure out if it's the drag of the suit in the water or just having to kick a lot with the suit on.

No wet suit and 4 pounds-90 ft. no problem.

with wet suit and 12 pounds-80 ft. and short bottom time with plenty of CO2 build up and discomfort.

I would appreciate any advice.

Thank You!

Skip Perry

 

[Bill]

It looks like you're about 4# more buoyant on the surface. That can make a big difference on deeper dives. The plan should be something like 5 hard kicks, softer until 30 feet and stop kicking. You may have to change your surface dive a little too.

 

[blueface]

It looks like you're about 4# more buoyant on the surface. That can make a big difference on deeper dives. The plan should be something like 5 hard kicks, softer until 30 feet and stop kicking. You may have to change your surface dive a little too.

Thanks Bill! I probably do need to work on my duck dive on the surface. I do 5 hard kicks followed by 5 soft kicks and then static all the way down but with the 3 mil my descent seems too slow and it creates anxiety and then it becomes a task to get to the bottom. Should I try to get more momentum from the start?

It seems when I don't have a wet suit on I expend alot less energy from the start and I get to the static phase faster. My dive reflex is also stronger. I sure don't want to add more weight. 12 pounds could sink an elephant!

Thanks Bill!

 

[billieball]

Is your wetsuit open-cell/Y'moto neoprene on the outside? Sometimes the composition of the suit can affect drag. Smooth skin outside makes a difference.

 

[Bill]

'Should I try to get more momentum from the start?'

Probably better not to think about it. Another 5 seconds in the sink phase will have no affect on the rest of the dive if you relax well. Diving is at least 50% a game with your head. Picture the poor divers in cold water with 5 mm of neoprene.

 

[blueface]

Thanks again Bill. I'll try it again. I know that my technique needs some work. My suit is not smooth on the outside and that might cause some drag. My next suit will be smooth and it will probably be a 1.5 mil. I do like this suit but it is very buoyant.

Thanks!

Skip

 

[blueface]

Is your wetsuit open-cell/Y'moto neoprene on the outside? Sometimes the composition of the suit can affect drag. Smooth skin outside makes a difference.

It's not smooth on the outside and that does cause some drag. My next suit will be smooth and 1.5 mil.

Thanks!

Skip Perry

 

[cdavis]

Hi Blueface,

Probably the main difference is fighting the extra buoyancy of the suit. Assuming neutral at the same depth in the example you posted, you have 8 pounds of extra fight. Thats a lot, and makes a lot of c02. Think about how much difference in co2 buildup you were getting when diving frc when you did not have to fight a 1/2 lung full of buoyancy.

As a comparison: or me, no suit, 30 meters is a breeze. In a 6 mil, 50 ft is deep, 70 is a killer, and my times are cut in half.


How to improve performance with a suit.:

1. The easy, expensive way: get a well cut freediving suit that will keep you warmer with less rubber.

2. improve you surface dive and kicking technique.

3. Most work but also most result: get good at frc diving. This will cut down on the weight you use, extend your bottom time and the practice will improve your technique.

Good luck with it

Connor

 

[azapa]

a little story here to backup Connors wise words: I spent my first year freediving under weighted for my conditions. Mainly, in retrospect, from reading too much here and being frighted to approach correct weighting. I would claw may way down to 15M (er, 50 feet) and in the cold silence all I would hear would be my heart beating about 120Bpm, not good for a relaxed dive.

It may take a year of playing around, but you'll get there. IMHO though a nylon or smooth outer on your suit is 2% of the problem. Its more time playing with weight, diving a lot, and a good buddy watching your a..s

 

[azapa]

Picture the poor divers in cold water with 5 mm of neoprene.

Thanks Bill, and Its 7mm actually, with a 2mm vest underneath, 5mm gloves and socks. Oh yes, and it's all year around..

 

[trux]

I seem to have a problem when using my 3 mil wet suit. It's a 2-pc farmer John and I use 12 pounds to be neutral at 15 ft. or 5 meters ...

Hmm, something does not add up here. If you are neutrally buoyant at 5 m, it means you sink most of the distance to your depth effortlessly. And the difference of buoyancy of a 3 mm wetsuit between the surface and 5 m is negligible (it would be 1/4 of its overall buoyancy if it was perfectly compressible, which it is not, hence it is even less), so the cause is certainly not the buoyancy of the wetsuit. The immersion effort with your wetsuit is only slightly higher than without it due to added compressible buoyancy, and since you are negatively buoyant at 5 m and sinking thereafter, the overall energy needed to get down shouldn't be noticeably higher than without a wetsuit and weighted for the same neutral buoyancy depth.

When diving with a wetsuit, it is rather the ascent part that is more difficult, because of the steeper buoyancy loss in depth with a wetsuit in comparison to no-suit dive. That's why people usually weight themselves to be neutrally buoyant at 10 m or even deeper. It is also a very much advisable safety measure - SWB usually happens in depth above 10 m, so it is definitely better being positively buoyant in the SWB zone. Personally I would not like to have any buddy being negatively buoyant below 5 m and would ask him to drop a weight from his belt (well, unless we dive just in really shallow water).

Hence, I believe there must be some other problem limiting you. I do not think it is the extra buoyancy. Perhaps the wetsuit does not fit well and limits you in motion. Or it is too loose, takes too much water in, and causes big drag. Perhaps your immersion technique plays a role too. Or perhaps it is just the added stress of unknown conditions that cuts down your bottom time, and you just need to get more comfortable diving in such conditions. More likely it is a combination of all the above mentioned issues.

 

[Tony Babowicz]

Is it possible that your wetsuit does not allow you to breathe properly, thus giving you the anxiety that you don't experience when diving without a suit. I also agree with Trux in that you wetsuit could impede your mobility, making it harder to dive. Before I got a good wetsuit (3mm Oceaner smooth) I would have to pull the neoprene away from my chest and let it fill with water to get a good breathe up.

 

[blueface]

Thanks for all the responses! It is an honor and a privlege to get these comments from such talented divers! It is very inspiring as well. Trux had an excelent point about coming up. I can defintely feel more drag. I will continue to experiment with different weight and technique. Here is a breakdown of a 90 ft. dive I did today with no suit and 4lbs. of weight. (I'm neutral at 25 ft. on a full breath) I had a Suunto D-3 and was curious to see how fast or slow I was getting down.

Surface to 25 ft with 5 hard kicks-10 seconds
to 50 ft with 5 soft kicks-22 seconds -I'm negative but kick soft
70 ft- 36 seconds
80 ft- 41 seconds
90 ft- 50 seconds

Spent about 7 seconds at the bottom and felt great. It took about 30 seconds to get back to the surface. total time is 1:26. Does my descent rate seem a little slow? Ascending is very easy and I feel completely relaxed throughout. With the wet suit I'll have to try it out at 90 ft.

(After 80 ft. I angled a bit to land in a flatter area. This costed some time.)

 

[cdavis]

Your descent rate does seem slow. Are you carrying a gun?, hands out? looking down?, ducking your head and pulling in your shoulders in a tight streamline? All of these things can greatly affect hydrodynamics and how fast you fall. No gun, good technique, a 90 foot dive(down and up) with no bottom time should take roughly 50-60 seconds,

Since you are primarily a spearo (like me) you almost certainly look down when you descend. That great for hunting, but slows you way way down. Try tucking your chin into your chest and see how much faster you go.

Connor

 

[Kars]

Reading from the start I got the idea cdavis just posted, your hydrodynamics.

Looking forward, arching your back, in dynamic gives you 60% (!) more drag.
Also consider the way that you have your hand on your nose for equalising, bring the elbow on the chest.

For the falling phase I like to have my arms to my side, close my eyes and have my head in line with my vertical body. My equalising nose hand is on my nose and the elbow on my chest. This way it's just like a static with a little equalising
The amount of relaxation will increase, and so you'll safe more and more air.

Let us know how you fare!

Kars.

PS. here the water is cold too, so I envy your waters

 

[blueface]

Thank you all for your time and knowledge! I'm learning so much. I will practice keeping my elbow in. I know it makes a huge difference. I try to keep the top of my head pointed at the bottom but sometimes I look around and it slows me down.

Skip Perry

 

[Absolute]

Flowing smoothly through the water and going straight are important if you are going to attach a time to it. Try and rig up a reference line and time your dives again. Just to make sure you are going straight down and not doing the banana dive profile.

 

[blueface]

I tried being more streamlined today and kicking just alittle harder and I was getting to 20 meters in 25 seconds and it's an improvement. Thanks for all the advice guys!