Dive respons vs. work respons doing high puls training.

[baiyoke]

In this thread http://forums.deeperblue.com/static-dynamic/96826-conditioning-desensitizing-dive-respons.html (you don't have to read it to participate in this thread) the diverespons (DR) was discussed, and we briefly talked about "work response" (WR) also, something that Sebastian Murat has also talked about, and other people also use as a term and factor at play doing apnea. By work response, as a term, I understand it as the bodys adaptation to aerobic work... Wich is kind of the opposite of apnea and diverespons.

Now, the last thread became a bit confusing, so I'll try to ask my question as simple as I can:

I am worried about the effect of high-puls training combined with breath-hold such as sprints with short breaks, or swimming followed by diving. Or even swimming and holding your breath fx every 5-10 strokes. Or actually even swimming as a warm-up before apnea. I'm thinking pooltraining here... And mixing high puls and breathhold in the same dive. I worry that my body will weaken my DR because of a coupling of WR and apnea... I've seen indications of this from people that cannot feel DR and blackout too often in compititions with no feelings of lactic acid or vasoconstriction. They seem to favor high workload training. So I try to do traning that is sometimes intense (in length/time), but always slow to medium workload.

What are your thoughts on this? I know the puls-training can probably create good CO2 tolerance, and has created world class divers beforehand... But before records where a lot smaller than todays records, probably for a reason (knowledge and smarter training fx). It makes sooo much more sense to me, to seperate the two, DR and WR... But at my freediving-club we do a lot of puls-training, or training with a high workload, and I don't like it at all, feels counter-productive and counter intuitive to me...

Any thoughts on that? Is it OK, or is it perhaps oldschool training and something to avoid at all cost...

Thanks.

 

[cdavis]

Ahh, different questions from the other thread(my understanding).

I agree with your logic, but can only comment from experience in one area.

As far as a swimming warmup to apnea, I've experimented with this, swimming hard cardio before and or after apnea training. It appeared to have no effect on dive time or distance in the pool. I was pushing time pretty hard at the time, diving about 60 percent full. My dive times then were 3:30-almost 4 minutes and I was very happy with the progression of time increases. The only difference I could see was taking longer to get my body into "dive mode" if I swam first(maybe 10-15 minutes longer).

Connor

 

[baiyoke]

Ahh, different questions from the other thread(my understanding).

Yes, a more straight forward training-schedule specific question (I hope): Can pulstraining perhaps be (very) counter-productive?

 

[cdavis]

Define exactly what you mean by "pulstraining", with an example.

 

[baiyoke]

So what I call pulstraining is fx
- sprints with short breaks: That would fx be 50m fast dive, and a 1 minut break, then go again... (creating almost constant high puls, and high workload in general)
- swimming followed by diving: That would fx be crawl 25m immediately followed by 25m dive, the crawl again, then dive etc....
- swimming and holding your breath fx every 5-10 strokes: Actually I mean breathing for every 5 to 10 stroke. Here you mix aerobic work, with high CO2...
- Also swimming as a warmup: You want train apnea, but you start with fx 300m crawl... so you start up the aerobic system for maybe 10 minutes, and after that you train apnea and dive...

It makes more sense to me to seperate aerobic an apnea work. So go running on monday and train cardio, and dive on tuesday relaxed, calm and teaching the body that diving is about saving oxygen, not using it...

 

[growingupninja]

I have given the concept of work response a lot of thought. I believe it has huge safety implications for serial divers, deep divers, and spearfishermen, and it is something rarely addressed. However I feel like it should be defined more as "body's adaptation to work AFTER dive response has been initiated and/or the diver is in a state of apnea."

But honestly, I think it is largely determined by genetics, and training has very little influence on it, at least in my case, and there is a certain amount of individual variance, and factors like full lung vs FRC among individual divers also seem to influence it. People with a strong DR and weak WR, when training hard are mostly training lactic tolerance. Most divers with a strong WR when training hard will probably be training hypoxic/hypercapnic tolerance and cardio. A diver with poor DR and high WR would be prone to BO and probably shouldn't dive, or should at least look at some serious cardio conditioning first...

 

[baiyoke]

However I feel like it should be defined more as "body's adaptation to work AFTER dive response has been initiated and/or the diver is in a state of apnea.".

After reading that quite a few times, I think I get what you mean... But since you start working right from beginning, it's not like there's FIRST a DR, and THEN a WR... I picture it more like it's an initial fight between the two from the start of apnea, and if your DR is strong, and have time to kick in, it will take over.

Mind however that some people never get to a point where they can really FEEL the diverespons (allthough it's probably doing something), and some of them BO prematurely in dynamic when comparing to their static times fx. (i.e. they have good statics, but shorter DYN/DNF) They often have no problem doing a dynamic until BO... Fx one guy I know of has a solid 6:30 training static PB, a 100m comp. DYN PB, but usually enters the BO-zone around 75+ meters...

But honestly, I think it is largely determined by genetics, and training has very little influence on it

Might be... I've just experienced indications of it being at least capable of being affected by training habits... If you look in the thread I mentioned in the first post, it seems clear that some people think DR can be weakened/desensitized or affected as a trained response by how we train...

People with a strong DR and weak WR...

I know the term WR doesn't seem quite established (and DR actually the same), but I would be cautious of saying WEAK WR... Since people with a good DR might also have a really good WR when running or doing other aerobic cardiovascular excersize... So it seems to me more accurate to just say STRONG DR in those cases...

People with a strong DR and weak WR, when training hard are mostly training lactic tolerance. Most divers with a strong WR when training hard will probably be training hypoxic/hypercapnic tolerance and cardio.A diver with poor DR and high WR would be prone to BO...

Agree on your thoughts there...

A diver with poor DR and high WR would be prone to BO and probably shouldn't dive, or should at least look at some serious cardio conditioning first...

You lost me on the cardio... Why should he/she do more cardio, that's the thing his/her body is allready prone to do???

And what are your thoughts on what I call puls-training? That it's ok because DR/WR is primarily about genetics, and not to be changed much either way?

 

[growingupninja]

After reading that quite a few times, I think I get what you mean... But since you start working right from beginning, it's not like there's FIRST a DR, and THEN a WR... I picture it more like it's an initial fight between the two from the start of apnea, and if your DR is strong, and have time to kick in, it will take over.

No, there is evidence that in some people, once DR is established, exertion does not raise their HR, and in others, the DR can be 'broken' by exertion (re: ascent tachycardia). In some individuals DR may not happen at all if they are working above a certain intensity. An individual whose DR can be easily broken by exertion could be said to have a strong work response.

Mind however that some people never get to a point where they can really FEEL the diverespons (allthough it's probably doing something), and some of them BO prematurely in dynamic when comparing to their static times fx. (i.e. they have good statics, but shorter DYN/DNF) They often have no problem doing a dynamic until BO... Fx one guy I know of has a solid 6:30 training static PB, a 100m comp. DYN PB, but usually enters the BO-zone around 75+ meters...

What people 'feel' is very subjective and not anything that can be accurately measured against limits and performance. Dive response as I am using it includes bradycardia--HR below normal resting--and vasoconstriction. Those are values we can measure and record, and they have a direct correlation to performance and final limit.

Might be... I've just experienced indications of it being at least capable of being affected by training habits... If you look in the thread I mentioned in the first post, it seems clear that some people think DR can be weakened/desensitized or affected as a trained response by how we train...

Maybe in some people it is affected by training habits, and during bouts of heavy training (borderline overtraining) it may be blunted. For instance, if you do heavy CO2 training in the morning, most any tests you run later in the day will be skewed, at least in my experience.

I know the term WR doesn't seem quite established (and DR actually the same), but I would be cautious of saying WEAK WR... Since people with a good DR might also have a really good WR when running or doing other aerobic cardiovascular excersize... So it seems to me more accurate to just say STRONG DR in those cases...

Weak WR would be the diver who, when in apnea, experiences no raise in HR or break in vasoconstriction during exertion. That diver's muscles would be working almost entirely anaerobically. A diver who has a strong work response would be getting blood flow to his muscles, and his muscles would be working more aerobically. WR in relation to diving/apnea has little or no bearing on exercise where the subject is breathing. HR in response to exercise (when the subject is breathing) is commonly and accurately used to determine general fitness. This is different than WR in diving, and mostly unrelated--by your logic, an overweight couch potato going up a flight of stairs could be described as having a 'better than average work response', yet the same individual could, when in a state of apnea, experience no rise in HR when exercising. Yes, that individual could be simply described as having a strong DR. However, I suspect that some divers have a strong DR when not exerting themselves, but when they exert themselves beyond a certain point while in apnea, they break their DR and beginning burning O2. It would seem other divers do not.

You lost me on the cardio... Why should he/she do more cardio, that's the thing his/her body is allready prone to do???

And what are your thoughts on what I call puls-training? That it's ok because DR/WR is primarily about genetics, and not to be changed much either way?

Somebody with poor DR and high WR (as it relates to diving) might as well do cardio because swimming underwater for them would just be exercise same as any other.

Much of my training would be what you call puls-training. In my case I don't feel like it has blunted DR in any way. And yes, the more I learn about it, the more I believe DR/WR is dependently largely on genetics. A huge portion of sport freediving is traininable, but an individual's basic physiological response to cold water, pressure, high CO2, low O2, as manifested by bradycardia and vasoconstriction seems to be genetic. We really don't know--most top freedivers who have been highly studied have been doing it for a long time so it is difficult to say, and many top freedivers report a natural inclination for apnea. It's only fun for some people.

Long wall of text here, mostly a regurgitation of Murat's theories as I understand them and my own observations but I would really like to see more research done on the topic because I think it has serious safety implications for spearos and open water freedivers especially.

 

[baiyoke]

I see now that we have different views on what constitute WR. But please read carefull, and I shall do the same, because otherwise misunderstandings are very likely to happen...

A few comments:

What people 'feel' is very subjective and not anything that can be accurately measured against limits and performance. Dive response as I am using it includes bradycardia--HR below normal resting--and vasoconstriction. Those are values we can measure and record, and they have a direct correlation to performance and final limit.

We actually almost agree on this. However on top of bradycardia and vasoconstriction, I also count (weird) feelings in arms/legs, wich can be both vasoconstriction and build up of lactic acid. Plus I also look for highly elevated bloodpressure (for many the feeling of a strong slow beating heart, and sound in ears). If someone can dive to BO and not feel any of the above, I suspect a weak DR, allthough some/all of it might be present in a weak form.

Weak WR would be the diver who, when in apnea, experiences no raise in HR or break in vasoconstriction during exertion. That diver's muscles would be working almost entirely anaerobically. A diver who has a strong work response would be getting blood flow to his muscles, and his muscles would be working more aerobically. WR in relation to diving/apnea has little or no bearing on exercise where the subject is breathing. HR in response to exercise (when the subject is breathing) is commonly and accurately used to determine general fitness. This is different than WR in diving, and mostly unrelated--

It's funny. I can see how we have very different notions of WR. You see weak and strong apnea WR. I just see DR and WR... I'm not ruling out your way of perceiving things, but I honostly don't think there's a thing like an apnea WR. And to me it overcomplicates things, that are allready plenty complicated. I see just this: DR and WR (also see below for a theoretical framework on that). But I agree that people to a varying degree can be pushed out of their "DR zone" if working too hard. Wether or not there's such thing as two persons with equal initial strong DR, but one is more easely pushed out of DR, doing a certain amount of apnea workload, I don't know... But to me, I'd say the latter just have or stronger WR - or that they just don't have an equal DR after all.

--by your logic, an overweight couch potato going up a flight of stairs could be described as having a 'better than average work response', yet the same individual could, when in a state of apnea, experience no rise in HR when exercising.
.

No, I woudn't. You suspect I would only measure WR as high HR. Why would I do that, that is too simplistic? I would look at WR at a much more close level... not sure what exactly, but something like bloodvessel dilation, raise in HR and stroke volume, and especially also changes at a micro-biological level... But in general, and more than anything else, I would look for things related to the activation of the sympathetic nerveous system.

However, I suspect that some divers have a strong DR when not exerting themselves, but when they exert themselves beyond a certain point while in apnea, they break their DR and beginning burning O2. It would seem other divers do not.
.

I agree and disagree. I think it's a common thing for the two, DR and WR, to be "fighting", and not something specific to some people. We are different in our strength of DR... and therefore also the difference in how much workload we can do in apnea, before the body cannot stay in DR-mode. But it is mostly about DR. We can have both strong DR and strong WR in one body. In apnea the DR just wins every time... And THAT is why we would say he/she has got a strong DR (not because of "weak apnea-WR activation).

Much of my training would be what you call puls-training. In my case I don't feel like it has blunted DR in any way.

So the interesting question is; do you have what you would consider a strong DR?


About the more theoretical framework for talking about only one DR and one WR: I think it might come down to the activtion of (at least part of) the parasympathetic nervous system (DR), and the sympathetic nervous system (WR)... Quite simple, and of course not the hole picture, but a general one.

Sympathetic nervous system
Main article: Sympathetic nervous system
Promotes a "fight or flight" response, corresponds with arousal and energy generation, and inhibits digestion.
Diverts blood flow away from the gastro-intestinal (GI) tract and skin via vasoconstriction.
Blood flow to skeletal muscles and the lungs is enhanced (by as much as 1200% in the case of skeletal muscles).
Dilates bronchioles of the lung, which allows for greater alveolar oxygen exchange.
Increases heart rate and the contractility of cardiac cells (myocytes), thereby providing a mechanism for enhanced blood flow to skeletal muscles.
Dilates pupils and relaxes the ciliary muscle to the lens, allowing more light to enter the eye and far vision.
Provides vasodilation for the coronary vessels of the heart.
Constricts all the intestinal sphincters and the urinary sphincter.
Inhibits peristalsis.
Stimulates orgasm.

[edit]Parasympathetic nervous system
Main article: Parasympathetic nervous system
Promotes a "rest and digest" response, promotes calming of the nerves return to regular function, and enhances digestion.
The parasympathetic nerves dilate blood vessels leading to the GI tract, increasing blood flow. This is important following the consumption of food, due to the greater metabolic demands placed on the body by the gut.
The parasympathetic nervous system can also constrict the bronchiolar diameter when the need for oxygen has diminished.
Dedicated cardiac branches of the Vagus and thoracic Spinal Accessory nerves impart Parasympathetic control of the Heart or Myocardium.
During accommodation, the parasympathetic nervous system causes constriction of the pupil and contraction of the ciliary muscle to the lens, allowing for closer vision.
The parasympathetic nervous system stimulates salivary gland secretion, and accelerates peristalsis, so, in keeping with the rest and digest functions, appropriate PNS activity mediates digestion of food and indirectly, the absorption of nutrients.
The PNS is also involved in the erection of genital tissues, via the pelvic splanchnic nerves 2–4.
The PNS is responsible for stimulating sexual arousal.

 

[growingupninja]

Baiyoke, I have to look at it very pragmatically. A lot of the research I have done is because while I have been swimming/diving/playing in open water since infancy, once into my teens, I have been mostly alone in the water. I haven't been spearfishing that long and a lot of what I have without question taken for granted in my life raised concerns among older and more experienced spearos/freedivers once I discovered that community. I will try to research parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, but I have no idea how to quantify which is being activated given the simple tools I have. From looking at your summary, and from what we know happens to divers during apnea, I would have to guess that the dive response might be activating different aspects of those two systems?

Yes, not to jinx myself but I seem to have a strong DR (expressed as bradycardia) which stays very consistent in the presence of water, preferably cold. My numbers and graphs do seem to be different from what little I have seen of other trained divers' graphs, but it is hard to know what another diver did in the 24-48 hours leading up to a taping or session, etc.

 

[baiyoke]

Well, being pragmatic is good... But as soon as you dig in to this sports theory, things just quickly gets complicated...

I don't mind if people join with some straight forward views on what I call pulstraining...

What is the idea behind pulstraining...???

Someone told me, that one of the ideas behind pulstraining is to practice the quick transition from aerobic mode, to DR mode... makes sense when explained like that, I'm just not certain that it actually works like that.

Another could be CO2 training... But you could do that in a slow tempo as well...

Could anyone explain to me why pulstraining is good? I'm open for new interpretations, I just worry about it, because I rarely see concern about the possible WR coupling.

 

[baiyoke]

Btw this article by one of the worlds greatest freedivers ever is one long recommendation of what I would describe as pulstraining, or apnea training with high workload... And it sure as h... seems to work for her... (allthough note it's 7 years old).

Methods of Freediver Training ( 2 ) :: Technical

At the same time it's kind of the opposite of what someone like Murat or Mullins is recommending, when talking about intensity and specificity ...

That's why things are so confusing sometimes...

 

[growingupninja]

I have read that article. I think that beyond a certain point a diver's genetic predisposition begins to create limits that will be different than those of another diver, and the sampling size for the sport, especially at the top level, is so small that an individual can still dominate many events even though they may be predisposed to certain events; limits are still being expanded by a wide margin.

In my case I don't know if it is nature or nurture, and I have only looked at graphs of a few divers. I have done high intensity interval cardio training my entire life--starting as a comp swimmer at the age of 6 and then as an adult, years of ring sports. From testing with an O2 meter I know that I reoxygenate very fast, in seconds, and I typically do not see a drop in O2 sat for minutes when I start a breath hold, but once it drops it is fairly linear. Other trained divers who I have been able to watch in real time (Goran's for instance), show a faster drop but it stabilizes for a while around 80, which I would hazard to guess could be when his spleen starts kicking in. There is another video I saw of a NLT diver who exhibited similar behavior. And my tests are inconclusive since they are done dry and until recently have been after warm-up or part of a series.

Puls-training feels very natural to me and similar to high intensity cardio interval training.

When I spear I typically am comfortable with a short surface interval (besides CO2), but seeing Goran's hold, albeit an 8 minute one, his post apnea O2 sat hung arouns the 40's for a very long time. Mine dips and quickly climbs to normal within seconds. Is it because a lifetime of high intensity interval training has made respond that way? Dunno.

 

[cdavis]

Aaron Soloman, in one of his recent webinars(#2, I think), outlined how he uses apnea walking with a heart monitor to illuminate the strength and the timing of a divers natural vasoconstriction ability. Might be an interesting way to classify divers in your club.

 

[Mullins]

Lance, it's likely that Goran is taking himself heavily into O2 debt; and that that takes a while to pay back, delaying a rise in O2 saturation. Most people can't take themselves into that kind of debt because they will BO before they get there. Reoxygenation is much faster for them, for obvious reasons.

That's the key attribute of top divers - they don't have enormous O2 reserves but instead can go into huge debt without blacking out.

If you got Goran to do a series of spearfishing dives with lots of swimming involved, you'd see much faster reoxygenation because he wouldn't be able to go into such debt without blacking out (the WR vs DR thing).

 

[baiyoke]

From testing with an O2 meter I know that I reoxygenate very fast, in seconds, and I typically do not see a drop in O2 sat for minutes when I start a breath hold, but once it drops it is fairly linear. Other trained divers who I have been able to watch in real time (Goran's for instance), show a faster drop but it stabilizes for a while around 80, which I would hazard to guess could be when his spleen starts kicking in....

....seeing Goran's hold, albeit an 8 minute one, his post apnea O2 sat hung arouns the 40's for a very long time. Mine dips and quickly climbs to normal within seconds. Is it because a lifetime of high intensity interval training has made respond that way? Dunno.

You could of course speculate, that you have a "fast reoxygenation"... You could on the other hand also see it as an indication, that your vasoconstriction is not as strong as Gorans (i.e. that Gorans seperates the core and the limbs better, and stay that way longer). It could also be that you both have strong vasoconstriction, but yours releases instantly when breathing again. I don't know... However, I don't believe being in shape does much difference there... or does much good for apnea in general (see also this http://forums.deeperblue.com/introd...s-her-breath-any-measuremen-2.html#post907324).

Aaron Soloman, in one of his recent webinars(#2, I think), outlined how he uses apnea walking with a heart monitor to illuminate the strength and the timing of a divers natural vasoconstriction ability. Might be an interesting way to classify divers in your club.

Might be an idea, only I'd worry a bit about the missing water skeewing results somehow when comparing people... Some people might need the water tricker...


Mullins, any thoughts about what I call "puls-training"? Have you done it (a lot)?

 

[Mullins]

It reduces my max apnea distance, but I get it back fairly quickly i.e. within a month or two. At least that's what happened when I tried last year.

 

[growingupninja]

Lance, it's likely that Goran is taking himself heavily into O2 debt; and that that takes a while to pay back, delaying a rise in O2 saturation. Most people can't take themselves into that kind of debt because they will BO before they get there. Reoxygenation is much faster for them, for obvious reasons.

That's the key attribute of top divers - they don't have enormous O2 reserves but instead can go into huge debt without blacking out.

If you got Goran to do a series of spearfishing dives with lots of swimming involved, you'd see much faster reoxygenation because he wouldn't be able to go into such debt without blacking out (the WR vs DR thing).

Thanks for the info. I will have to test with longer holds and either videotape the meter or (better) work with a partner. My results are consistent with up to 5 min dry static holds (I will double check but want to say 5min dry holds put me mid 70's O2%). A couple weekends ago I maxed at 6:44 but it was at a comp so no recording. On video of the SP I can see I am a bit slow and twitchy when reaching for my mask but I remember standing and performing SP, but not the last 1:30 of the hold, so it may have been just relaxation; I usually zone out hard when I have trained statics but typically not the end, and I was apparently wiggling my finger every 15 secs. I don't do any max training and estimate that when spearing I rarely go below 93% and have probably never ever gone below 90%.

 

[growingupninja]

You could of course speculate, that you have a "fast reoxygenation"... You could on the other hand also see it as an indication, that your vasoconstriction is not as strong as Gorans (i.e. that Gorans seperates the core and the limbs better, and stay that way longer). It could also be that you both have strong vasoconstriction, but yours releases instantly when breathing again. I don't know... However, I don't believe being in shape does much difference there...

I don't pay a ton of attention to HR after a static hold but want to say that my HR tends to rise very quickly after first breath (80+ bpm) and then drop in a linear fashion until close to normal resting in the roughly 30 secs it takes for O2 to fully normalize, with the exception (that I noticed once so far) of continuing to drop back down to my bradycardia level and stay there for a minute while relaxed, blood at 98% O2, and breathing. I didn't keep good enough notes to say conclusively but I think the rise is a bit less than it used to be, and my CO2 tolerance is much higher now than it was a year ago.

 

[growingupninja]

Re: Re: Dive respons vs. work respons doing high puls training.

Aaron Soloman, in one of his recent webinars(#2, I think), outlined how he uses apnea walking with a heart monitor to illuminate the strength and the timing of a divers natural vasoconstriction ability. Might be an interesting way to classify divers in your club.

Yeah, I have watched a lot of his webinars and think they are terrific. Nobody I know of here in socal practices much apnea walking that I am aware of but also nobody seems interested in training depth (at least to an internationally competitive level) here either. I can't say that I agree 100% with apnea walking as indicator of what a diver will do just because--and this based on tests on myself--dry work vs wet work is very, very different. I also don't believe warm-up will help some divers experience more bradycardia when apnea walking as he once stated. I am of the opinion that bradycardia is mostly genetic predisposition, and that in regards to warm-up the opposite is true to varying degrees across the board. Although WU seems to help everyone with struggle phase, psychologically. And also Aaron seems to be coming from a experienced coach's perspective, which is valuable in terms of real performance and more concerned with results as opposed to a young apnea nerd's obsession over numbers and graphs, etc, which may be interesting to some but not translate in competition.

To say that DR is primarily a genetic thing could be very discouraging to some beginners, especially since so many other aspects are trainable. I would feel like it is not my place to classify divers based on this. For 99.999% of sport freedivers there is not much at stake besides bragging rights, a sense of accomplishment, maybe some free.gear--it's not like we are building teams to compete for millions of dollars in sponsorship.