Dive response with statics

[davidmutton]

Hi All!

I am just starting on this whole freediving thing and while doing my as yet limited practise with dry statics (like with running and swimming, I don't think I'm getting any better if I don't practise SOMETHING)...

My dive reflex definitely doesn't kick in. It does on ocean dives and pool dives but not on dry statics. Is it supposed to? Am I just not holding for long enough? I guess this is an important one for me because unless my DR kicks in, I find it incredibly difficult to even get past 2 minutes let along longer.
Anyway, if dry statics are just basically to train the mind then that's fine but I guess I'm just not sure what to expect.

Happy diving,
Dave

 

[trux]

Try putting a wet cold towel (or a bag filled with glass) over your face. But do not cover your respiratory ways - you could suffocate in case of a blackout.

 

[davidmutton]

Now that's a very good idea. Not something I would have thought of on my own.

Thanks for the advice Trux, I will give it a go.
Cheers
Dave

 

[TimoP]

Try putting a wet cold towel over your face.

Now that's a very good idea. Not something I would have thought of on my own.
Thanks for the advice Trux, I will give it a go.

Just don't go this far :blackeye with that Wet Towel training:

:naughty
The (ex?) CIA Apnea metod:
"Where authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee (or a freediver ) may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water application."

The whole story: [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding[/ame]

The Chinese version in a MynthBusters video:
HowStuffWorks Videos "MythBusters: Water Torture"

In this kind of training it's better think twice, who you'll select to your "training buddy".

 

[davidmutton]

I may be a beginner but I can at least hold for 40 seconds!

If all those CIA people are out of a job, maybe some freedivers want to hire them for some more EXTREME training :martial
Not my idea of fun though! :ko
Dave

 

[azapa]

Hi All!

I am just starting on this whole freediving thing and while doing my as yet limited practise with dry statics (like with running and swimming, I don't think I'm getting any better if I don't practise SOMETHING)...

My dive reflex definitely doesn't kick in. It does on ocean dives and pool dives but not on dry statics. Is it supposed to? Am I just not holding for long enough? I guess this is an important one for me because unless my DR kicks in, I find it incredibly difficult to even get past 2 minutes let along longer.
Anyway, if dry statics are just basically to train the mind then that's fine but I guess I'm just not sure what to expect.

Happy diving,
Dave

Hello David, It kicks in more in the ocean, as you noticed, due to the facial immersion, but also:
- the temperature difference (about 12 to 14C around the mouth, nose and especially eyes is ideal)
- the successive apneas, you will find, according to your warm up, that they improve. I find there are three phases. Lets imagine a 3 hour session in the water with very little warm up
a. first 45 mins: not good apnea, warm
b. 00:45 a 2:00 good apneas, cool
c, 2:00 a 2:30 fantastic apneas, getting cold
d. 2:30 bad apneas, very cold, stay around anyway

NOTE: If you alter your warm up, and make it optimal, the "fantastic apnea" phase will come in much earlier. The above is more a typical spearing session. There is much text here on DB about optimal warm ups, mainly based on "one shot" target depth freeediving.

In statics things are quite similar in my experience, the first 2 or 3 will be hard/short. The 4th /5th easier and good. The 6th 7th you start loosing it (concentration and will too).

More info than you asked for, well, I already typed it and some may apply to you

dive safe

 

[Mullins]

How do you know whether your dive response 'kicks in'? Are you measuring your pulse rate? Discomfort is governed by CO2, and having a slightly stronger or weaker DR won't change the rate of CO2 buildup very much.

If you feel less comfortable doing dry statics then it might be a psychological thing, or you are breathing/preparing differently, or maybe it's just the difference between statics and dynamics/constant weight diving. They do feel quite different.

 

[TimoP]

Try apnea walking, too. It may feel very different than dry static.
To me DR (and other things ) kicks in much better in apnea walking and feelings are more like in wet DYN or DNF and less like in dry static.
Anpea walking is good apnea training anyway. But no apnea running, cause then Black Out can "kick in" suddenly in full speed and you can hurt your head badly when falling down.

 

[bite ya]

Erm, what the dive reflex? Is it some magical change that happens when you get in the water. For me, you hold your breath (dry/wet/hot/cold doesn't matter) co2 builds up and see your good your tolerence level is. Thats it!

 

[JennyWren]

Erm, what the dive reflex? Is it some magical change that happens when you get in the water. For me, you hold your breath (dry/wet/hot/cold doesn't matter) co2 builds up and see your good your tolerence level is. Thats it!

For me, the most obvious way that I notice my DR kicking in is how much easier it gets throughout a training session. With statics, my contractions get later and later with each static. For depth, I just feel more comfortable deeper/longer as the training session progresses. Also find that I get more and more relaxed.

 

[Mullins]

The dive response will reduce CO2 production somewhat, but I wonder how much of the increase in comfort is simply attributable to buffering. Beginners are usually taught that the more comfortable they feel then the stronger their dive response must be, but it'd be interesting to see if this is actually the case. I suspect that they would continue to report improvements long after the DR had actually peaked.

 

[trux]

Erm, what the dive reflex? Is it some magical change that happens when you get in the water. For me, you hold your breath (dry/wet/hot/cold doesn't matter) co2 builds up and see your good your tolerence level is. Thats it!

Actually no, it is not. DR is depending on much more triggers than just the CO2. Thermic sensors, especially on the face, pH, pressure, O2 level, stress hormons, and other factors play important role, and will influence the DR and its strength considerably.

 

[blueface]

The dive response will reduce CO2 production somewhat, but I wonder how much of the increase in comfort is simply attributable to buffering. Beginners are usually taught that the more comfortable they feel then the stronger their dive response must be, but it'd be interesting to see if this is actually the case. I suspect that they would continue to report improvements long after the DR had actually peaked.

Dave, is there any "feeling" that a diver gets when a strong dive response kicks in?

I was under the impression that the increase in comfort was caused by a profound dive response.

What is buffering? I suspect it is somehting to do with cO2 tolerance.

 

[Bill]

I was doing a little research this week on the hot new disease that's sweeping a section of this country. Sleep apnea has all the earmarks of a scam(IMHO) but they mentioned that cooling the head made it easier to sleep. Very interesting. I wonder if the author would differentiate between the whole head and the face alone. Maybe if I slip an ice pack under my hood...........

 

[TimoP]

.... they mentioned that cooling the head made it easier to sleep. Very interesting. ...

Freezing brains could minimize the O2 consumption in static, too...:t
In dynamic ice cubes in a swimming cap would work .
Frozen Brain Black Out (FBBO) might be the problem :head

Seriously: there can be some benefit of cooling you head, especially if in hot circumstances. And it's a fact, that it's easier to sleep in a cool room than in a hot one. So relaxation is maybe deeper, if you head is cool than if it's (too) hot.

Edit:
Maybe it would be better not to say warm-up time and zone in competition,
isn't it better to say cooling or cool-down time and zone, especially cause the no-warm-up style is "the right way" nowadays.

When a coach says to a competitor: "NOW cool down yourself" it maybe should be taken litterally, and put those ice cubes inside a swimming cap just in time some minutes before OT... rofl

In fact, in some laguages there is a phrase (I don't know if so in English): "Put ice inside your hat (or cap)!" It means "Cool down!" or "Think realistic!".

 

[apneaboy]

Freezing brains could minimize the O2 consumption in static, too...:t
In dynamic ice cubes in a swimming cap would work .
Frozen Brain Black Out (FBBO) might be the problem :head

I'm off to get my ice pack out, what a top idea. Gotta be worth a shot :martial

 

[Mullins]

Dave, is there any "feeling" that a diver gets when a strong dive response kicks in?

I was under the impression that the increase in comfort was caused by a profound dive response.

What is buffering? I suspect it is somehting to do with cO2 tolerance.

For many people (me included) onset of contractions corresponds with an increase in DR. But a 'tight' and/or 'weak' feeling in the legs and arms along with a hot head are more direct indicators. If you are able to feel your pulse during a dive, this drops as the DR takes hold. Others might have more to add.

Buffers are chemicals which keep the pH of a solution (e.g. blood) within a narrow range despite the addition of an acid or base. I don't know much about buffers in a physiological sense, but I understand that the body produces them in response to high CO2, limiting the blood's shift towards acidity and in turn reducing the urge to breathe. How fast this can happen in humans I also don't know, maybe somebody who's more clued can explain a bit better.

The success of no-warmup dives suggests to me that for many people the DR might actually peak in the first breathhold, the feel-good factor of subsequent breathholds just being related to buffers (which improve comfort but not performance). Purely speculative, mind you.

 

[TimoP]

The success of no-warmup dives suggests to me that for many people the DR might actually peak in the first breathhold, the feel-good factor of subsequent breathholds just being related to buffers (which improve comfort but not performance). Purely speculative, mind you.

I think, that's a fact that warm-ups improve comfort but not performance...IF you can stand that discomfort. But it seems to need quit a lot training to do no-warm up top results, but it's worth it for competitive freedivers nowadays.

I have often some strange, even pleasant, feelings (very different than contractions) in my stomack-groin area when DR(or something) kicks in. Something like a quick and deep local relaxation. In dynamic it happens normally in 40 m and in apnea walking after about 40 "douplesteps" (80 steps). But rarely have them in dry or wet static. In static I have strong contractions, not so pleasant...probably not trained enough.

 

[blueface]

Thanks for the respnse Dave!