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Diver vs Doctor

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Well that was fun ;)

Sometimes I have no faith in human communication or agendas. :p

Thanks for the post!
 
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OceanSwimmer

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2002
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Great topic....

Great discussion, so far. I'd be curious to read what Eric Fattah would add. Thanks for the link! What a great site! I'm repeatedly impressed with the quality of information you Ozzies bring together about diving, the ocean, and marine life...way to go, gentlemen. Well done!
 

kingohyes

New Member
Aug 17, 2003
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Originally posted by tylerz
** DISCLAIMER ** This is not to imply everybody should run out, exhale, and go as deep as they can!!! It was donen with as much understanding, experience with my body, and safety I could muster.

Hehe yo have some good arguments... And i loved your DISCLAIMER:p
 

Seal

Deepsy
Apr 29, 2003
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First of all nice work there tylerz.

But.......I still don't know what danger this Simon Mitchell is referring to in doing exhale diving :confused:

It would be interesting to see if Seb will have less blackouts among his students than a normal class would. He has said (Seb) that if he had continued doing full inhale dives he would have died from BO long ago. (I belive it was on this forum correct me if i'm wrong) I can see that this is concerning in many eyes. But I really don't expect exhale diving to be the "new" thing among the kids this summer.

So if anyone have some info on what could be the real danger of exhale diving please put it in here so that the greenhorns can weigh it carefully.
 

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Thanks for the support guys...

and I couldn't help myself... I responded to his further take. :( But I promise I stop here! Well that is unless he gives a response that looks like there is some actual effort towards a valuable discussion.
 
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juhani

New Member
Apr 21, 2004
13
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Reading through the discussion, I just can't understand how did you all manage to miss the point that this "poor" doctor was saying:

"If Sebastian discussed his technique publicly in the context of clear careful warnings about the limited experience with it, and the fact that aspects of it do not make physiological sense, then I would have no problem with him"

The technique this Sebastien is using might be amazing, but he should not use pseudo-scientific reasoning for backing up his believes.
 
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Seal

Deepsy
Apr 29, 2003
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Well excuse me but the whole sport of freediving is a bit pseudo-scientific so far.

Lets face it the medical society haven't got much clue as to what is possible yet. So far I have gotten much more usable facts from Eric Fattah, Seb and tylerz + many more in here than from any scuba diving physician/anyone.


*Edit* Has anyone noticed that it seems easier to read long theoretical posts on that other forum? It seems that the fonts and colours are easier on the eye?
 
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Ben Gowland

Aplysia gowlandicus
Apr 4, 2002
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I'm a 'Dr' too, y'know!

Who is this Simon Mitchell buffoon anyway?

I've got a good mind to put some of my own ranting up against his there!

:rcard

I'm amazed that he can't grasp the logic of it....

:head
 
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donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
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I found the opposing theories and positions fascinating. It really helped me understand the logic behind both methods. Its too bad Dr. Mitchell had to take the personal attack approach. Reminded me of Johnny Cochran playing the race card at the OJ trial. His goal of warning divers the live threatening risks as he saw them could have been much better served without the personal attacks. Instead he came across looking childish.

As Tyler and Eric so elegantly put, the scientific medical proof has lagged behind the self-experimenting freedivers through out the history of the sport.

By the way, we (db) have our own pulmonary and respiratory physician specialist / freediver in the likes of Frank Pernett (fpernett). He, like a few other doctors on the board, don’t throw their titles around, but instead uses their words and logic to support their points. I found the “Situation in Italy” thread interesting when the freediving writer was arguing with Frank and stated he himself was not a “physician, but …” ect.. Little did he know the man he was arguing was a physician and a specialist in the very field of the discussion!
don
 

Ben Gowland

Aplysia gowlandicus
Apr 4, 2002
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It seems that there were a few misunderstandings of speech in there, as the freedivers were using the term 'exhale' to actually refer to an 'ehale dive', and this was driving some of the issues there.

I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the 'holier than thou' attitude shown - sure, freediving theory is far beyond freediving experimental science - but then, a massive chunk of modern day medicine (espcially scuba-medicine) is also based on logical theory, modelling and experience rather than experimental proof.

To raise a public outcry, in that manner, ignoring the 'confidence-levels' of science in general seems rather naive.

It reeked of personal comment to me, and not professional comment.

The bit about 'I am a respected diving physician' was priceless......

:D
 

Dark&Cold.Diver

New Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Thanks for posting that link

I´ve found it very entertaining to read thoose threads.
Some centurys ago you were a luntaic if you said anything else that the earth was flat, and it was the centre of the universe.:D
Didnt that well-educated "doctor" study any rhetoric, when he got his degree?
I love this site and its community guys keep up your good work !

Jeppe.
 

Shadowkiller

Digital Hunter
Jul 30, 2002
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Originally posted by Ben Gowland

The bit about 'I am a respected diving physician' was priceless......


But Simon Mitchell IS a highly respected dive doc here in Oz, and NZ too. His presentation at the DiveOz charity event was really good. No point in him assuming too modest a guise, he has years of experience as a Scubby.

I linked to the DiveOz thread to give people an opportunity to see a different opinion, not to bag the guy out.
 

Seal

Deepsy
Apr 29, 2003
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Originally posted by Shadowkiller


I linked to the DiveOz thread to give people an opportunity to see a different opinion, not to bag the guy out.

Yes but little did you realise that infact, you had thrown him at the horde of freediving fools! :D
 
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juhani

New Member
Apr 21, 2004
13
1
0
The poor doctor might be arrogant and lousy in his rhetoric, but he seems to be right. He just noted that S.Murat cited his readings falsely. ( I take this as a fact until someone actually proves dr. Arrogant being wrong) Why is this so hard to accept?
Why is it such a big deal?

Sorry guys, but although he is only a scuba diving physician, I would still rely on his view more than on some uninitiated person's, especially in this case when I belong to this uninitiated group by myself. Yes, I tend to bow to degrees and diplomas! Peer reviewed language - when spoken correctly works for me!

The question is not about whether your diving techniques are working or not. It is about how accurate are your explanations on WHY these techiques seem to be (or are?) working. If someone gives an explanation which does not make any sense given the prior knowledge, shouldn't his arguments be corrected? If this prior knowledge is wrong, then it is someday going to be corrected in some peer reviewed journal - NOT on these internet forums. Your self-experiments might give some nice hypothesis for a study. Facts they do not give!

Dr. Ben! Prove this poor arrogant Dr. being wrong and I rest my case.

juhani
 

Ben Gowland

Aplysia gowlandicus
Apr 4, 2002
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The theory that Sebastien has put forward is completely logical with our present understanding (mostly based on theory and experience, not published experiments), and the references Sebastien stated FULLY support his theory. This is why I am amazed at the stuff that is coming from Simon Mitchell. I agree with some of the safety concerns taht he states, but not that this method of diving is 'physiologically wrong' (not a direct quote). I hope that he will appreciate during the course of the discussion there that it is not just Sebastien that is doing this, but dozens (or more) or people around the world (all experienced freedivers) are finding the benfits of this manner of diving.

SM stated that Marine mammals can do what they do due to large O2 stores and that we as humans don't have them, ergo we cannot dive this way. This is not Logical.

The logic should be: Marine mammals can dive so well this way due to the large O2 stores they have, and that we as humans don't have such large stores that we cannot perform to the same level.

But Sebastien never said any of these things. He never claimed he could dive as deep or as long as a Sperm Whale or Elephant seal. He claimed that there is logic to why this method of diving could be useful to humans. That's essentially all he is saying (and proving by his actions, along with many other freedivers).

This is a long standing problem in breath hold diving, in that theory and experience are sooooooo far ahead of published experimental research, that published research will take decades to ever catch up with where we are now. I know that Sebastien is trying to bridge that gap.

Eric was absolutely right to point out that 'No research has been published on human exhale breath hold diving [this will change as Seb publishes his findings] and thus there is no research that supports nor disproves Sebastien's theories. The only relevant evidence is that Marine mammals gain advantages (and disadvantages) from this kind of diving and thus, unless proven otherwise, there is no reason to think that Sebastien's theories are incorrect.

As an (ex)physiologist, I agree with the theory.

As a freediver, who has been diving with these techniques for over a year now, I find that it works in real life (and I'm still here ;) ).

I don't see that there is anything more to say, and I find it saddening that a respected physician jumps up and down to denounce Sebastien, before taking the time to fully understand what he is saying, although to reiterate, I think his safety concerns are fair, just inappropriately presented.

:(

I'm off to Orkney freediving for the weekend, so I'll be interested to see if this all calms down by next week.
 
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juhani

New Member
Apr 21, 2004
13
1
0
SM seems to be as sure on the issue as you are. Why don' t you debate with him? I'm still waiting for your reply on SM's last post on diveoz.

As I said before I'm keen on degrees and diplomas. What is Sebastien's position in the field of science?
 
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