Diving supplements for improved performance

[cigarlung]

Looking forward to diving in the Philippines in less than a month just bought some Siberian Ginseng in hopes of improving lung capacity and obvious depth and bottom time. I used Ginseng many years ago and as I recall my Aerobic capacity increased along with running times, faster speed better distance by aprox 20 percent. I would like input from others on diet and supplements to improve performance. Please note I have been training hard and hopefully smart thankyou for your input.

 

[lopen79]

try to consume food which is more alkaline ..that means row vegetables and fruit
and lesser carbohydrates .. alkaline food will shift your body ph to alkaline and become more tolerant to high levels of co2 and lactoses .. thus the more alkaline the blood the more healthy red cells in the cell wall ,, which means more efficiency in o2 transfer ... good luck and dive safe

 

[myfish]

I used Ginseng many years ago and as I recall my Aerobic capacity increased along with running times, faster speed better distance by aprox 20 percent.

Interesting that.
I am not aware of any real study regards actual performance increase using
Ginseng. How do you measure 20% ? based upon what and did you do
a training program alongside the ingestion of the Ginseng ?

 

[efattah]

If you want studies about good ginseng, search medline for G115, which is a high quality extract which showed positive results in most studies.

 

[cigarlung]

Thanks Lopen I will go with the alkaline diet the Ginseng that I used 10 years ago was not for freediving only running it was not under strict scientific testing. I was running 3 to 6 miles a day in Hobbs New Mexico perhaps it was only placebo effect just thought I would bring the subject up for Topic of discussion Thanks

 

[myfish]

just thought I would bring the subject up for Topic of discussion Thanks

Absolutely.

I cycle race. In that sport, people try all sorts of supplements, or more..
However, i find it rare to come across anything that gives absolute measurable performance improvement.

There are of course exceptions and with this freedive game too, there will be.

I'm quite interested in this, alkalinity of blood via diet.
Maybe it'll never work for me as i run a high carb diet to fuel the bike.

We've always relied upon very 'high intensity' exercise to build tolerance to
lactic.

 

[Jofish]

An extremely interesting topic, I had never considered the use of supplements with a view to improving freediving performance. Or the possibilities of doping in performance freediving.

Myfish, your comments got me thinking about doping in cycling and other endurance events. It is unfortunate that substances like EPO (Erythropoietin) are now so commonplace (and so hard to detect).
The use of EPO would massively effect breath holding capability and freediving performance.

I'm assuming that due to the size of AIDA, that there are no anti-doping trials at competition or for record attempts?

Cigarlung, although it is described as an 'adaptogen' I have always thought of Ginseng as a herbal stimulant with a similar effect to Caffeine. As such it would be detrimental to consume it when freediving. However, to use it as part of a preparatory exercise regime may help you train harder...and of course training aerobically will increase your aerobic capacity and training anaerobically will increase your lactate tolerance; both leading to improved freediving performance.

Perhaps I've been naive to have never considered the use of performance enhancing substances in freediving; I've just always thought of it as a 'pure' sport...

 

[chrismar]

All world records are ratified only once a standard WADA urine test is passed. An A sample is tested first, then a B sample if the first was found to have illegal substances in it. It's not everything, but it's a start.

 

[cigarlung]

I was looking for a difficult to describe effect where my lung volume increased while running this of course was 10 years ago. This time I report no improvement in lung fuction however did manage to injure the achilles tendon which was from increasing my milage to fast. I am also a sceptic on supplements however if there is a cheap product that may be of bennifit I will try it on whim. Looking forward to Ocean diving in the Philippinnes next week. Allow me to change topic anyone have any cheap do it yourself cures for gum disease thanks Rob

 

[Broseidon]

Would substances that improve endurance improve breath holds? If so, Winstrol (Stanozolol) would be very good.

Other substances that increase red blood count would probably be quite good too - Testosterone or Equipoise (Boldenone Undecylenate) would be a good place to start.

All totally illegal mind you

I was doing a bit of thinking on the effects of vasodilators on breath holds and concluded that, in theory, they may well improve breath hold ability - although this is only my opinion from reading a few medical journals and a fair bit of supposition!

Does anyone know the medical reseon the people take Ginseng?

I cycle race. In that sport, people try all sorts of supplements, or more.
However, i find it rare to come across anything that gives absolute measurable performance improvement.

Wow - you can't have looked that hard! If you really want to improve performance... there is a whole world of possibilities...

 

[Jofish]

Broseidon, are you a freediver or bodybuilder?!!!

The use of anabolic steroids to improve breath holding performance?!

Hypertrophy = more O2 required by muscles.:duh
Water retention = less streamline.:duh
Enlarged Atria of the heart = larger stroke volume = faster O2 consumption.:duh
etc...

Can't think of any positives really!!!

Vasodilators improving breath holds?

Mamalian dive reflex works by vasoconstriction.:duh

Not sure what Medical Journals you've been reading!!!

I may be totally wrong but that's my understanding of the effects of the illegal substances you mentioned and my understanding of freediving physiology!!!
(My knowlege of said substances is not through (ab)use but through working as a fitness professional for the last decade)

My advice for freediving supplementation: If you don't have the benefit of a diet rich in fresh fruit and vegetables then take a good multi-vitamin.

Otherwise, everything in moderation and always stay hydrated!

Be very carefull what you put into your body - it won't last you forever!

 

[Broseidon]

Broseidon, are you a freediver or bodybuilder?!!!

The use of anabolic steroids to improve breath holding performance?!

Hypertrophy = more O2 required by muscles.:duh
Water retention = less streamline.:duh
Enlarged Atria of the heart = larger stroke volume = faster O2 consumption.:duh
etc...

Can't think of any positives really!!!

Vasodilators improving breath holds?

Mamalian dive reflex works by vasoconstriction.:duh

Not sure what Medical Journals you've been reading!!!

Wow - some serious misconceptions / ignorance here.

I'm not advocating the use of these substances, I'm just adding to the thread by telling people what would increase freedive ability.

The substances I've listed may well be anabolic but they also have a MASSIVE impact on other things, such as red blood count, which will directly impact on freedive performance.

Just to tick off the point's you're confused about:

Hypertrophy: if you don't train with weights or heavy resistance, hypertrophy will not occur, if it does, it will so minor that it would be impossible to notice. Certainly nothing for a freediver to worry about.

Water Retention: Water retention usually occurs when high levels of oestrogens are present in the body. This will typically occur through aromatisation of exogenous testosterone, although it could only be noticeable in high doses (+500mg/week) - if someone was going to take this much testosterone, simply taking an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex would stop the breakdown of testosterone to oestrogen, halting any water bloat.

Realistically, saying that water bloat would make someone less streamlined is totally off the mark - substances like Equipoise or Winstrol do not even cause water retention and Testosterone will only do so in high doses, and this typically only occurs with long ester testosterone like cypionate or enanthate - propionate would limit retention without the use of an AI.

Enlarged Heart: Another silly mistake - cardiac hypertrophy is an increase in the thickness of the myocardium (heart walls) leading to a decrease in stroke volume, not an increase.

Just to cover a little more about the causes of cardiac hypertrophy as you know so little about it: it is usually caused naturally through extended high blood pressure causing the heart to work harder or through heart valve stenosis.

Chemical causes of hypertrophy can occur when taking high doses of clenbuterol (it also causes cardic necrosis), although this has only been noted where people ingest milligrams of the substance as opposed to the recommended dose which is in micrograms.

This is not something that would happen from taking any of the substances I listed.

Re my thoughts on vasodilation theoretically improving freediving ability, it's just my own theory based on numerous things I've read. I won't go into it as I'm presuming that it'll be a little complicated for you!

 

[Jofish]

Wow - I've definately been taken to school there!

Please forgive my ignorance, by my own admission, I know very little about the effects of these substances. It seems that what I did know was mainly the dangers of their misuse and not any benefits from their use in carefully prescribed dosages.:duh

I apologise for the boldness of my original reply - I see steroidal compounds mentioned and automatically condemn their use!:duh

Every day is a school day! Thanks for enlightening me.

While my reply was percieved as ignorance :duh(I wrote it uninformed as I didn't do any research, just voiced my reaction from my limited knowledge), it is a subject that genuinely fascinates me and although I would never use these substances, I would like to know more.

I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the possible benefits of vasodilators. Please let me know of your research and thoughts, I'd appreciate it (and I promise not to make any uninformed, ignorant replies)!!!

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Mullins]

Vasodilation pre-dive could be a good thing, as long as it was completely reversed during the dive itself. It would get rid of any oxygen debt and reduce blood pressure.

 

[Broseidon]

Wow - I've definately been taken to school there!

Hi Joe,

Sorry if I went a little OTT - people tend to see the word 'steroid' and have a 'knee jerk reaction' that these substances are bad, evil and will kill us - people forget that these are medicinal compounds and as with all medicines, these can be both used and abused. Just to reiterate, I'm not advocating the use of these substances, I just thought I'd bring them up for interests sake as part of a discussion on potential freediving supplements.

It sounds like I'm quite like you in the fact that this subject genuinely fascinates me - I think I've built up a decent knowledge and so if there is anything that interested you or that you would like to know more about, please do ask!

Re vasodilators... it's still something I'm mulling over: I need to do a lot more reading first before I decided whether it's a silly idea or not. I'm wondering whether dilators could aid a free diver in terms of lowering blood pressure and so decreasing heart rate, I'm also curious whether an increased in blood mobilisation through dilation could cause increase oxygen transfer to the blood, not necessarily increasing mean blood oxygen levels, maybe just by increasing the % of blood cells that can transfer oxygen - possibly enhanced by a blood thinning agent, like Asprin. Obviously this goes against peripheral vasoconstriction which is part of the dive reflex and doesn't sit with the perceived blood pressure increases alongside bradycardia but as I said... it's a lot of supposition on my part. I'll do some more reading on it! I may well be completely misguided in this!

 

[Jofish]

Your ideas about vasodilators certainly make a lot of sense. The fact that there are so many indications and contra-indications with the use of vasodilators means that it's almost impossible to hypothesize the overall physiologicall effect and it's application to freediving.

Mullins' point is very relevant, although I'm not sure if there is any possible way to obtain complete reversability of the effects of a vasodilator during the dive but benefit from its effects pre and post dive.

I guess there are so many unknowns that the only method to find out the true effects would be by conducting a research study. I'm not sure how much medical research is currently ongoing in the freediving world. Jaques Mayol was involved in a lot but haven't heard of a great deal since. I know that medical expeditions from the UK often go to the Himalayas to research physiological effects of altitude. I wonder if there would be any interest in studying the effects of high pressure rather than low pressure in a freediving study- I'd volunteer!!!

 

[Broseidon]

I'm going to do some experiments on myself. I'm going to try Vasodilator + Blood thinner and compare it to 'normal me'.

I'll go for simple, health food shop type stuff, Niacin + Aspirin and compare my times for apnea walking with those of just normal me with no supplements. If I do 6 holds per day for 14 days, it should give me enough basic data to show whether or not there is any correlation.

I'm not expecting miracles but it'll be a bit of fun!

I'll post up the results when I'm done!

 

[DafyddRees]

Meh - I cant't really understand the use of vasodilators for apnea... Forgive me if I am wrong - Vasodialtion increases the amount of blood supplied to the muscles due to the decrease in peripheral resitance...Increasing the amount of 02 supplied to muscles will only increase the amount of C02 produced. It also decreases the amount of blood supplied to the brain/heart, which when diving, will stimulate the breathing response. The only thing I could see it being used for is to potentially try to saturate the muscles with oxygen but would only be shortlived effect.

Just wondering, what were your thoughts behind using aspirin Bros? Blood thinning refers to a reduction of the blood to clot (aspirin affects part of the platelet casquade - I think it inhibits factor X). I don't think it has any affect on 02 retention :S

Get yourself some digitalis or beta-blockers (PoM medicines so might be quite difficult but worth a try)!

(At least I remembered some this years course!)

 

[Broseidon]

The factor 'X' you're talking about would be thromboxane?

It's a type of eskinoid and vasoconstrictor and also a facilitator of platelet aggregation (coagulation) - 40mg/day of Aspirin will inhibit it's production. As a hypertensive, I'm thinking that if I can inhibit it, it will aid blood flow and work well with the niacin.

I'm not talking about using hardcore chems, just a few simple, everyday things.

I'm not sure the whole vasodilation thing is a great idea but hey, why not test it out! Won't find out if I don't try it!