DNF Training

[pingshui]

I found out for myself that I love diving without fins the most. Since I cannot regularly be at lakes (ocean is even more difficult) I simply stick to DNF most of the time. I already scratched at the 100 benchmark, but somehow I am not progressing from there.

I would really love to get some advice how to continue training so I can finish at least another lap and get to 125. I know a lot of factors are involved and it varies between persons, so here are some facts about myself:

- My technique is already quite good and there might not be much room for improvement, as I have been a competitive swimmer for a very long time

- I can regularly do a 5min. static breathhold (dry), somehow in the pool I can't really do much more than 4min.

- I play Underwater Rugby twice a week

- I have a competent buddy available once a week

- I have not tried no-warmup yet, so this what I will try to do next.

So what should I focus on now?

 

[aris ioannidis]

Hi Pingshui, i think you are on the right track. I was also a competitive swimmer and i had the tendency when i started apnea 5 yrs ago to try to swim fast. Now i go considerably slower with as less strokes as possible and long glides off the walls. The benefit is lower oxygen consumption and longer dives (in time and meters).

I started using no-warmups this year with success as i managed to improve my PB considerably - but this approach may take some time to start working especially if you are new at the sport. The focus of no warm-ups is on relaxation before the dive (would need 5-10 min breath up). Contractions at first are rather hard but when you get past the early hard part, the dive progresses with greater ease and you end up with a clear not a heavy head.

Regarding your static beeing longer dry it is b/c you probably practise more dry. If you start practising wet more you will probably get to the stage were your wet static will be longer than your dry. I do find however, that although static practise is good as a work-out drill it does not directly help your dynamics. If you want to improve your DNF you should practise mainly DNF.

 

[pingshui]

Thanks for the fast reply!

On my 100m I did 2 strokes the first lane, 3 strokes for 2nd and 4rd lane and 4 or 5 strokes for the last lane. I think I need to improve on relaxation especially towards the end.

An improvement in static helps me to get self-confident for my dynamic. If for a week my static did not go well then I would not even try to go for a max DNF.

I wish I could pracitce more in the pool, but I am lucky if my buddy has time once a week. And during UWR practice there is no time for a 10min breath up But this summer I might have the chance to get into the water some more. I will keep you updated, how that works!

 

[aris ioannidis]

2 strokes per 25 is good. I do 2 strokes per 25 for 75m and then switch to 3, probably 4 in the last 25. It helps to do less strokes if u are tall. Maybe u can try to do 2 strokes on te 2nd lap as well. I assume u use enough neckweight and a suit to have better glides.

Normally towards the end it helps to accelerate a little bit - but not too much - focus as you say, should be on relaxation. Try to turn from the 100 and i think you' ll gradually be able to reach 125. At the end of the dive make sure you are alert with a clear head - if u get dizzy, end the dive.

I understand the mental part from your static but i think in fact they are unrelated - u may have a horrible static the day before and still do a PB in DNF. 3-4 mins relaxation before the dive are essential.

 

[pingshui]

Well, I am not that tall, but my arms are long

Unfortunately I cannot afford a suit for dynamic right now. I only have my 6mm Elios and would probably need 10kg to stay down with it. Without a suit I use 2kg, which always felt good so far. Maybe a little more weight helps with glide.

As I see it, and you are totally right, I just need to practice more in the water.

 

[nh77]

Hi Pingshui,
I m near your level, as you, i prefer DNF and now i started no warmup training. I did 75m Before this training and after some 25m and some 50m. I stayed to this level some time with no improvment. Last week i read in here about this training and i tryied it. First no warm up max was 50m.. Next day 75m. 2 days later i did 82m and now 90m. I am close to do 100m in the first shot with 7min normal breathing before (like if i was reading a book). I can not tell you if this progression will keep on (not this fast i assume) but i think that it is a good route to explore. I can not push far because i train in a public pool with poeople but i can tell that the contraction are much more pleasant than after a warm up with some lanes. As you i did 5:15 dry static but never try in wet. The no warmup training works also for static but i didn t have the time to try. I read that some poeple get stuck with normal training and the progression is better with no warm up. It seems to be the case for me. If some expert in here could give some advices about this it would be great!
Hope it helps a little Pingshui, keep training and have fun!
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[pingshui]

Thanks for the reply! Your experience sounds promising and I am looking forward to trying it myself. Unfortunately I will not get to proper pools the next 2 month because I am stuck in Jakarta with lots of work. I will do lots of dry training to stay in shape and hit the water in july. I will keep you updated on my progress then!

 

[tcrusson]

To get past 100m, I basically worked on CO2 tables, to increase resistance to an overload of carbon dioxide and live with contractions. That took me to 139m (straight from 100 to 133m after a few months of tables, then 139m a few weeks later).

To get past this, I had to switch to the no warm-up technique. More from a mental block than anything else. This technique took me to 167m in 2 swims (150m, 167m a few weeks later). More details here: Swimming a 200m Dynamic
And the 167m swim: Splash: AIDA Pool Competition

Based on what you are describing (you obviously don't like the strong contractions on the last lap), I would advise doing quite a few tables for a while. Then, tactically, on a big swim, you may try going faster on the first lap (3 strokes), and keeping it to a consistent 3 strokes all the way to 100. If you can do that repetitively, plan a max and turn at the 100m wall.

Training with paddles also helps to build resistance to lactic --> better muscle efficiency towards the end of the swim.

I don't see how you can "improve on relaxation", but doing heaps of tables and swimming with paddles will get you used to the challenging conditions of a swim (contractions, lactic), so you are ready to fight on a max.

Also, a suit is a huge help on DNF. And there's always things to work on to improve your technique in this discipline!

Cheers and good luck,
Tanguy
Blog: Splash

 

[aris ioannidis]

Great info Tanguy, thanks! One question: why do u recommend going faster in the first lap with 3 strokes - would not that affect your relaxation? do u mean to do it just as an exersise? I usually go slower in the first few laps and then gradually accelerate (and do more strokes)

also, could u give an example of a CO2 table in DNF? I have not practiced much in that and maybe it can help me. I guess an example would be doing 25s or 50s and gradually reducing the breaks between...

cheers

PS: read your blog - vey nice and funny description!

 

[tcrusson]

Well, I guess everyone's different, but I started approaching DNF after watching this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01j3791X56c]YouTube - DNF 213m David Mullins[/ame]

And I tried to swim at that pace (relatively slow, 2.5 strokes per 25) for a while, but I was getting hypoxic early, and the contractions started early, which is quite demotivating. Then I saw this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnS6WVlXjwQ]YouTube - fred sessa 168m apnée dynamique sans palmes[/ame]

And I changed to a faster style. It was creating more lactic (pain in the arms and legs) but would take me further. In terms of relaxation: no difference at all. If anything, I was actually more relaxed while going faster, because the contractions would start later, which gave me greater confidence.

I think consistency is key in DNF. If you do 3 arm strokes from 25 onwards, then why not trying to swim the full 100m that way? It's likely your contractions will start later, which could improve your last 25, giving you the confidence to turn. If it doesn't work out for you, worst case you'll have lost a few training sessions ;-)

Tables: try to do 8 swims at least, shorter recovery every time.
For example: 50m, 2min, 50m, 1:45, ..., 15 sec, 50m
Once it gets easy to do that, switch to a harder one: 50m, 1:30, 50m, 1:20, ..., 10 sec, 50m

 

[nh77]

Hey thanks Tanguy to share your experience with us, your fast improvement gives a lot of hope! I never did wet static, only dry and not so often. What frequency of static training do you advise a week? Is it that imPortant to go far in DNF?
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[tcrusson]

I don't know if it helps, I hardly train at statics at all, and really suck at it!

 

[aris ioannidis]

nh77: i agree w/ Tanguy - if u want to improve in dynamics u should train in dynamics. Static is a different game; 1-2 per week should be ok and is better to train wet if u can.

Tanguy: thanks for the videos. I had the opposite development. Started with fast swimming (being an ex-swimmer was a natutal tendency) and managed to improve by slowing down a bit. My goal was to prolong the duration of the dive by going more economically - but still i cannot do much more than 3-min dives. Seeing experts like David, Goran and Bjarte doing 4-min plus dives is amazing! I think Fred Sessa may benefit by slowing down a bit.

also thanks for the table; did one yest got down to 15 sec from initial 50 sec break... I hyperventilate in the breaks to recover - but i think is probably better not to do that much. Also, i do increase my strokes and go faster to manage the set - seems easier that way but probably is better to try and keep the ususal pace.

 

[tcrusson]

I think Fred Sessa may benefit by slowing down a bit.

Let me know if you still think that after watching this ;-)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYtcKL_8LaM]YouTube - FRED SESSA - NEW DYNAMIC WORLD RECORD: 255m[/ame]

 

[aris ioannidis]

hehe, i know he is superfast!... but it seems that he may save some oxygen by longer glides and by one less stroke per lap...

 

[Apneaddict]

Who cares... He gets the WR and the girls!

3 jumped in the pool with him in bikinis after the record! Talk about training motivation!

 

[tcrusson]

hehe, i know he is superfast!... but it seems that he may save some oxygen by longer glides and by one less stroke per lap...

Not sure I agree with you on that one. The brain, heart, etc. are high consumers of oxygen, so theoretically with a shorter dive you save a lot there. Swimming that fast his muscles must be working mostly in anaerobic mode, so basically not consuming much oxygen but creating a lot of lactic. I think most people would get muscle failure before lacking oxygen at that pace.

Cheers,
Tanguy
Blog: Splash

 

[pingshui]

Must be he likes the pain I could not go at that speed, could not relax properly that way.

 

[aris ioannidis]

yes, he has amazing lactic acid tolerance!

have not thought of it like that Tanguy - guess is all relative and each freediver should find the pace that suits them better. I never get lactic in DNF but i do get burning legs in DYN - so i add an armstroke after each 2nd wall to save my legs.

good point Apneaddict, motivation is key! rofl