Dynamic Despair... :(

[Polorutz]

Ok guys Im posting to see if you can give me any pointers because I am getting very mediocre results in Dynamic apnea, DWF or DNF it's the same...

In DNF I manage to get 50 m but I feel like I am at my limit, the last 15 meters are incredibly hard, I can barely relax, I simply hate the CO2 buildup and my mind doesn't manage it well.

In DWF I have gotten up to 80m same thing.

Now here comes the weird part.. I've managed to do 39 meters constant ballast and I don't even think I am nearing my limit, I exit the water very relaxed, the only reason I don't have a bigger mark is the fact that I have not gotten the chance to go diving since my last max.

Static PB 5:15, Again, not much struggle, I don't know I think that I can tolerate Hypoxic conditions much better than hipercapnia (Excess CO2), I do a lot of CO2 tables.

Is there another training method to train CO2 tolerance? I mean I consider myself in good shape yet I cannot do decent DYN... my Static is relatively good (I've been training since 4 months only) and my CB is relatively good too.. help?

 

[efattah]

Are you able to swim in dynamic to the point of a blackout? Is your vision fading at the end of the swim or during the recovery? Can you think clearly at the end?

 

[Polorutz]

Im absolutely not able to swim to the point of blackout, my vision never fades and I think clearly... I clearly get really pissed and frustrated :duh

I know I am not reaching my limits but the sensation DYN causes me is not like the sensation I get from statics or constant ballast... It's much more harder to bear for me.

 

[DeepThought]

Try apnea walking or apnea stair walking, IMO they boost CO2 tolerance much better than CO2 tables if you're aiming for dynamic or CB.
You can also play with ventilation/warm-up and see what happens.

 

[jome]

Some thoughts:
-Dynamic is really just off-season training for cw...So, if you know you can perform well in cw, why be concerned? Take a break for a while, do dynamics that are just fun and comfortable, then you might try again. A lot of top level cw divers have pretty mediocre dyn results, but they're not too stressed about that...
-One training I do sometimes is diving against time, not distance. Ie I will go as slowly and relaxed as I can and don't care absolutely one bit if it's 25m or 125m. But I try to make it as long as I can timewise while keeping constantly in motion. I find it gives an psychological edge. Buddy has to be extra alert for this though.
-This is something I've had trouble understanding and implementing my self, but proper technique and relaxation actually do make a huge difference in co2 buildup. Stop training long dynamics for a while and concentrate on a moderate distance (50m with fins), but try to find the technique and speed that make that distance absolutely enjoyable. Then it's easy adding some meters...
-If the problem is indeed co2 buildup and you're not hitting your hypoxic limit, then things like diet and breathing techniques may offer some help.
-I hesitate to say this (take this advice carefully), but some athletic types seem to prefer swimming really fast once they hit the uncomfortable phase. Concentrating on your muscle fatigue and technique may take your mind away form how shitty you feel. But it can be dangerous, as we've seen, to accelerate in the end...

Training hard is good up to a point, but sometimes you got to give your self a little slack and try to find the fun and enjoyment again, and then start building performance up from that again.

Fun was the reason I started diving. Sometimes we just forget that

 

[Polorutz]

I always have fun... the thing is that I am starting to get competitive enough as to be in certain teams... I just made my state's freediving team and I want to be part of the national team once I improve more and I wanted to be rounded all the way around... I got frustrated because I have managed to get better and better in STA and CW and DYN doesn't seem to be progressing much.

 

[cdavis]

Hi Polorutz,

I could be wrong, but it sounds like your dive reflex is not kicking in very strong in the pool. Try doing things to kick it in harder. For example, do some full exhale dives to the bottom of the deep end. If you have not done negatives before, do a search and read the potential problems. You can hurt yourself, personal experiance. That said, 5 or six short negatives really kicks in my blood shift. Do relaxed negatives, breath up another two minutes or so and go. Alternately, going real slow at first also helps kick in the response. I find it just as easy to swim 25 real slow, hang 30 seconds and then swim another 50 as it is to swim 75 straight. Also, try a frc approach, passive exhale, hold to first contraction and then go.

Good luck and let us know how you do.

Connor

 

[Polorutz]

Hi Polorutz,

I could be wrong, but it sounds like your dive reflex is not kicking in very strong in the pool. Try doing things to kick it in harder. For example, do some full exhale dives to the bottom of the deep end. If you have not done negatives before, do a search and read the potential problems. You can hurt yourself, personal experiance. That said, 5 or six short negatives really kicks in my blood shift. Do relaxed negatives, breath up another two minutes or so and go. Alternately, going real slow at first also helps kick in the response. I find it just as easy to swim 25 real slow, hang 30 seconds and then swim another 50 as it is to swim 75 straight. Also, try a frc approach, passive exhale, hold to first contraction and then go.

Good luck and let us know how you do.

Connor

I've done negatives before however I have not tried those as warmup for DYN... will try, thank you!

 

[laminar]

Hi Polorutz,

Good luck with your competitive goals. That's exciting to be getting into!

In my experience, a couple of things really helped my dynamic:

1. Repetitve 53m(fins) or 27m (no fins) dynamics focusing on the most relaxed and efficient technique. Whether your style is fast or slow, you should feel confident about how you are moving through the water. Are you balanced, not too buoyant, not too negative, streamlined, too tense in upper body and chest, able to look at the pool bottom, and finally, able to do your turns at the wall with ease and without anxiety? Answering these questions will make you that much more confident when it comes time to perform.
I suggest adding a turn to each rep, not just stopping at the wall, so that you practice your turns enough to make it automatic. When it comes time to make the turn into undiscovered territory (ie. a new pb), you'll feel like you know what you're doing.

2. Anaerobic training. There are two ways to do this. One that has worked for me in the past is doing max effort intervals on the ERG (rowing machine), stationary bike, or fin swimming while breathing. You need to be in good shape first so as not to hurt yourself and you really need to be careful not to overtrain when doing high intensity exercises. But the results are there for me. Two, is apnea walking or hiking. If you are able to apnea walk up an incline and do it at a faster than walking pace, then you should see results, as long as you have proper nutrition to allow your body to respond to the hypoxic stress you are putting on it.

3. Dive response. If you are too warm, dry, too insulated in a wetsuit (if you wear one), chances are your dive response is not being initiated. You can do negatives, they appear to work for some people, but just getting wet can make all the difference. For example, at the start of the 45min countdown, I'll do two easy 25m swims on a passive exhale (FRV, no fins), and then get out and dry off. When my countdown comes I'm relaxed, if I'm lucky I'll be a bit chilly but not shivering so that when I jump in the water and go for max, the dive response doesn't have to overcome being overheated. Many divers do warm-ups, others avoid them. I've never like warm ups because I don't think they help or tell you much about what your max is going to be. If your training, nutrition, rest, technique and preparation is good, I don't think you need to do any warm-ups.

4. Psychology. Arguably, this is most important for dynamic and constant weight. You can gain the advantage if you are confident that your training is intense enough, you are getting sufficient rest and nutrition. Then, for dynamic, I personally prefer doing reps at 50% or 75% of max as technique training or anaerobic intervals, as a way to store up courage for the max attempt. In theory, training with the highest intensity all the time is probably the best method (see Tom Sietas and Seb Murat), but for many people, the demands of this method make it difficult and impractical. WHen competition day comes, I prefer (for dyanmic only) not knowing what I can do, but knowing that my preparation has been excellent. As I proceed with the dynamic, I keep checking my state of mind and being. Still good? Okay, keep going. This is much more comforting as opposed to the "Okay, I did XXXm two days ago, so I should be able to make that at least. Damn, I feel horrible, this sucks. Should I keep going? What if I black out. I should be able to make this. " Each day is different and ultimately you have no way of knowing how far you can push yourself in a max attempt.

There are lots of other things to discuss and many people have other methods. But I think that the fact that you can't black yourself out is a good sign that you are doing most things right. This is a much better problem than blacking out for no reason or losing conscious control at the end. CO2 tolerance will come with training and practice.

Good luck!

Pete

 

[Polorutz]

Posts like that make me love Deeperblue... so much thought into answering another freediver's question... Thank you very much and your response has made me factor in a lot of things I hadn't conciously thought before.

TY!!

 

[laminar]

Hi Polorutz,

Glad to be of help!

Pete

 

[naiad]

I am also trying to improve my dynamic, so I'll try some of the things in this thread. As another sufferer of dynamic despair, I have noticed that there is little connection between static and dynamic performance. There has been some improvement, so maybe with some serious training there will be more.

Lucia

 

[Haydn]

Your results in dynamic with fins is poor in comparison to your static. This is probably due to poor technique, too little recovery time between swims or more simply, you may not be fit enough and just getting puffed out during the dynamic. Why dont you do lots of easy 50m in order not to get stressed, then allow them to get more difficult through a gradual reduction in recovery times from say 3 minutes overall to 2 minutes. Allow this transition to take 3 months, training 3 times a week. After around 30 minutes of these 50s. Stop the dynamics and switch to surface finning lengths with snorkel, working as hard as you can inorder to get fit. When you can regularly 'sprint' for 15 to 30 minutes, you will find it really easy to do a single 100m dynamic, after a days rest.

 

[Erman]

I share similar problems as Polorutz, and hope to get some insight from some of the guru's here...

I recently started apnea training (discounting spearfishing and my swimming background). My DWF was pretty bismal at first; PB is 75m using bi-fins and freestyle kick (my knee hurts too much during dolphin kick).

My questions regarding DWF are; packing, will it help me reach my goal of 100m easier, or shall I continue to train as I was and wait it come naturally ?

On the other hand, my DNF simply sucks; I still have a hard time going beyond 30m. Any idea why my DNF is so dismal ?

Here is what I do during training (no wetsuit):
1- Start with 300m freestyle swim 5-to-1 breathing
2- Swim with training gloves with weights ; 300 X 5 with 5-to-1, 8-to-1, 10-to-1 breathing, then down same as starting
3- 600 m leg trainnig
4- Start dynamics training (6 X 50m with 2 min rest decreasing with 15 sec increments) with bi fins
5- Hybrid (?) training (6 X 25 m starting with Static increasing from 30 sec with 15sec increments)
6- If I feel right try PB's

How can I improve this further, or doing smtn wrong, any comments welcome?

Thanx

E

 

[jimdoe2you]

Wow, ........................this is an easy one. Who wants to tell him?

 

[Polorutz]

Today I did it, broke the 100m mark rofl I was ecstatic to find out it was all psychological, I completely zoned out from everything today, brought up a couple of buddies from our freediving group to my college so they could spot me (I invited them over to train and then I told them I wanted to do a max and I needed them there in case something went wrong).

Erman here's what I would advise you in all forms of apnea, if you're gonna try a PB do that only... don't train first, don't do anything but the max attempt, at least that's what the people I train with tell me.

So ok, I did my yoga stretches and diaphragm stretches from pranayama, kapalabhati and all, then I went in the water, just swam 25m freestyle to warm up the muscles, did so really slow... then I went into away mode, shut myself of the world just as I do in my max static attempts and did a 2 min facial inmersion (no goggles, just a noseclip, in order for the dive reflex to kick in), then a static to my first contraction (i dunno why I did this.. I just thought it might help), then 3 min slow breathing (no hyperventilation), 4 purge breaths, really deep inhale, 3 packs and in I went, all the time I was telling myself "you will get this done", in the warm up statics and inmerssions all I did was visualize myself touching that wall after 100m and coming up clean, I kept that in my mind as I swam and surprisingly enough my relaxation was superb, slow but powerful kicks... the first contraction came at about 75 meters (they usually came at around 45 so that was awesome for me) and I just kept going for 25 more, when I got to the wall I wasn't even feeling as pushed as I did when I did my previous 80m max... I guess it was all in my mind and in my warmup. So anyways I come up clean, remove the clip, the goggles and give the ok sign, I am a very mellow guy so I didn't start jumping or anything but I was so happy in the back of my mind that I just smiled for the next 2 hours

I am so glad I broke through that barrier that in my mind I know I can go for more... now it's time to consolidate the mark and do it again someday... and then just keep going...

thanks to all of you who paid me some attention and specially pete who gave me some good advice!.

 

[jimdoe2you]

Polorutz:

Kudos to you, .........I'm glad you found your zen!



Erman:

Quit working out aerobically before your DWF and/or attempting your PB. The only thing I didn't see in your work out list was a 45 minute sprint on a stationary bike. It's OK to warm up prior to attempting your PB, but don't initiate lactic acid production and then start your DWF.

 

[laminar]

Hi Erman,

I agree with Jim Doe aka the 40 year old virgin. rofl

Skip the aerobic training, especially before trying for max.

Try this:
-Don't go to the pool for 2 days and avoid cardio of any kind.
-Don't eat anything for at least 4 hours
-Get 2 friends who know how to spot you and find a swim lane with no one else in it. Rent the lane for 30 minutes if you have to.
-Get in the water with just a swimsuit on, do a VERY easy 25m underwater with fins/without fins, whichever discipline you want to try, focusing on getting wet, feeling relaxed
-get out and dry off.
-relax on the side of the pool deck for 5-10 min right at the edge of your swimming lane
-don't do any forced breathing, just breathe passively
-when you feel relaxed, ease yourself into the water
-take a deep breath, pack once or twice, then go
-see what happens: focus on moving through the water, feeling relaxed, and test your mental awareness at each turn. If you come to the last wall, whether it's at 75m or 100m, and are feeling the urge to breathe and you can from clear thoughts, make the turn and then come up.

As for training, it is entirely separate from going for max. Your training is usually incompatible with trying to set a new pb. In general, I would avoid aerobic. Doing breathing anaerobic intervals will give you health benefits (as long as you avoid injury and overtraining) and it will be more specific to what you are trying to do in apnea.

There are other types of training that can really be of benefit, that have nothing to do with conditioning.

Here's an example. Last fall, I spent about three weeks doing repeated 25m no fins dynamics, slow, fast, trying to find the best technique for myself. I tried 3 strokes per 25m and then I tried 6 strokes. I tried arms only and even legs only, so see how effective each component of my stroke was. I worked on my push off from the wall and my streamlining to glide as far as possible. I experiemented (again) with undulations between strokes and no undulations. I tried my stroke in a 50m pool to see how efficient my strokes really were without the push off. Then after experimenting like this for about a week, I just did repeated 25m no fins dynamics, concentrating on relaxation. Nothing more. I rested at least 2 minutes in between sets. I had no lactic acid build up at all. These weren't sets to increase my hypoxic tolerance or whatever. It was all about feeling good in the water.

Then I went for two months without doing a thing as the holidays hit and so on. We had a winter competition in January, I think, and I entered it without having been back in the pool. My dynamic with fins was tense and pretty horrible, I came up at 99m. My static also was no fun. Then came dynamic no fins and I followed what I outlined above. I got in, swam an easy 25m to feel that relaxation feeling, then swam another. I got out, dried myself off, then waited 35 minutes until my zero time.

When I pushed off the wall, I felt so good and when I came up at 104m (made that last turn), I felt fine. New pb, first time over 100m. What is strange about that is that I was in horrible physical shape (by my standards) but my body remembered how to move efficiently and stay relaxed in the water, even after a hiatus of a few months.

I think that this is the secret to freediving well. You can power through an apnea on the basis of your intense training, but that will only take you so far. If you are confident in your interaction with the water, it will be enjoyable and take you that much further.

Perhaps some day I'll have the opportunity to combine intense training with the approach I've described. It sure was fun!

This approach also has great benefits to your recreational diving. It has added greater awareness to my movement through water.

I like the one rep max method when it comes to dynamic. Experiment for yourself and have fun!

Pete

 

[laminar]

Congrats Polorutz!

Glad to hear of your success!

 

[Polorutz]

Congrats Polorutz!

Glad to hear of your success!

ty! your posts are very informative and overall helpful... +rep for u!