dynamic how do you turn

[fcallagy]

Ok I know this will vary as to what suits others, i usually push off hard from the wall at the turn and try to use the glide but can nearly feel the o2 dropping with a hard push. Was just wondering do many/any do a slow turn with a gentle push from the wall and if so does it have a big impact most of the vids i see of dynamic seem to be a hard push from the wall

 

[naiad]

I do a hard push from the wall for DNF, I think it produces more distance with less effort than swimming extra strokes.

Maybe with fins it is less important to get the most out of the turn. I do a gentle push with fins, mostly because I don't know how to turn properly.

Lucia

 

[ggarrett]

In dynamic no fins, pushing off the wall accounts for 33% of my distance or, in other words, out of 100 meters- over one length comes from pushing off the wall.

Hard, slow, gentle? All of the above. I find I can glide nearly to the middle of a 25 meter pool with a proper push off. I slowly position myself, plant my feet, aim my hands, and gently push hard, if that makes sense. Then, I just enjoy the glide before taking that first stroke.

When I first started doing more than one length, going from my stomach to my back seemed to take the least amount of energy. Energy conservation seemed like a worthy objective to me at the time. So, I come into the wall on my stomach, touch, and slowly and gently lean backwards, set my feet, position my arms, look up to the ceiling (or sky), and push off hard on my back. Then, I do the next length on my back, face up, looking up usually toward the lane markers. When I approach the wall on my back, I touch and do a backward flip turn- verrrry slooowly, set my feet, position my head and arm and push off slow and hard again- this time, face down. And so on.

Dynamics with fins is a different discipline. I have watched some pretty good DYF competitors and have read these forums. Turns may work against DYF if the competitor depends on the speed produced by the fins. Longer pools with fewer turns seem to favor DYF, except for Tom Sietas who set the recent world records in a 25 meter pool. The theory is that he gets maximum power from the one arm stroke that the DYF rules allow at the turn. Otherwise, big bi-fins and monofins look almost too awkward to me to make a smooth turn with any power. Maybe, however, big fins can be used like springs against the wall to propel the swimmer... ???

Anyway, I have come to really enjoy turns and pushing off the wall for pure recreation and relaxation.

Peace,
Glen

 

[rslomkow]

This is fascinating, I tend to do flip turns with my fins, but I always think I am scraping my fins (Cresi-Garas) and they tend to get in the way. I have never tried with a mono, but a normal flip-turn is with legs together.

I have wondered if people have a different technique, because my flip turns feel weaker than normal when I do them with fins, but I don't know if that is relative or I point my toes at a funny point.

I have been trying not to use the fins to leverage me off the wall, thinking I would break them. I also find that my roll is not as fast with long fins.

Do people spring out using their fins agains the wall? Has anyone broken a fin doing this?

 

[KatFish]

I push off quite hard for no fins, making sure that arms are out in front and everything is nicely aligned first to ensure no energy is lost going in the wrong direction.

For dynamics I swim quite slowly and do not push off the wall at all. For both with a mono and bi-fins I pivot on my right hand on the bottom of the pool and turn by touching the end with my left hand and pulling myself around. The knees bend and feet come up. Once again I align everything nicely and ensure my arms are back out in front before kicking gently away from the wall. This it really pleasurable and doesn't use anywhere near as much energy as pushing off the wall with your feet. It is difficult when the pool is really shallow though.

 

[TRITON]

I also push quite hard when I do DNF,because as far as I know hands consume more air that legs,so it's better to push off hard once that to do one or two strokes with your hands.In DYN i push gently.THere's also one thing that I noticed.
I's far more "dangerous" to "speed up" during DNF than in DYN.It's more likely that you'll experience a samba or a blackout if you accelerate quickly(at the end of your dive) in DNF than in DYN.

 

[ggarrett]

I also push quite hard when I do DNF,because as far as I know hands consume more air that legs,so it's better to push off hard once that to do one or two strokes with your hands.In DYN i push gently.THere's also one thing that I noticed.
I's far more "dangerous" to "speed up" during DNF than in DYN.It's more likely that you'll experience a samba or a blackout if you accelerate quickly(at the end of your dive) in DNF than in DYN.

Maybe someone on the forum knows for sure about the amount of energy used by legs versus arms. My reasoning and experience tells me that the legs require more energy (oxygen) than arms. Basic laws of physics conclude that power output is proportional to input energy. So, legs being more powerful use more energy than arms. Bigger muscles naturally use more energy. Also, there is the dive reflex which talks about the body constricting blood from the extremities to the heart, lungs, and brain. Legs are further from the priority organs than the arms. So, it would seem the using the legs retards the natural course of the dive reflex.

I have also observed that a good push in DNF is worth one to two armstrokes. Legs are just more powerful and make streamlining easier. I also find that turns in DNF offer an opportunity to rest and relax the arms. A 50 meter pool is harder for my DNF than a 25 meter pool. In 100 meters, it's one turn (50m pool) versus 3 turns (25m pool.)

About speeding up in DNF at the end leading to LMC or BO: Triton is right. I have noticed, in beginners especially, that there's a natural tendancy to speed up near the wall. For me, speeding up means taking more strokes and thus consuming more energy (oxygen.) The challenge is to find and maintain a constant rhythm from start to finish. Near the end of a maximum, keeping the same stroke rhythm is one way to keep the focus on how one is doing rather than trying to reach some distance goal. Trying to reach a preconceived distance gets me in trouble. While I do not swim dynamics with fins, I still would think that speeding up at the end also is a sign of tension, anxiety, unconscious desperation, and pending hypoxia. The difference with DYN is that it's faster to begin with. I still would think that speeding up in DYN still leads to LMC or BO. It's a good topic.

Peace,
Glen

 

[naiad]

I don't speed up at the end in DNF, but I do sometimes in DYN. I haven't ever had a LMC or BO doing dynamic, so it's hard to tell whether it makes a difference. It is mostly because of a strong urge to breathe.

Some more about sprinting at the end of a dynamic...
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=66072"]DWF Sprint = NO! (for me)[/ame]

 

[fcallagy]

Cheers for the replies,
I normally train dnf at a low level as am usually on my own but do find that I can feel starin when i push off hard. I also do a big armstroke at the end of the glide so am not sure which contributes more to O2 loss. I guess that the arms might use less O2 than the legs if NF but with fins the legs are more efficient ie get you further for the same effort