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dynamic speed

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Nth Qld Spearo

Active Member
Nov 19, 2008
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The other day I got my missus to time a 100m dynamic for me. It took me 1:33. This is using bi fins (matrix stiffness 5) and dolphin kicking the entire way. Just wondering how this compares to other people? Too fast/slow? Eventually I will get a monofin but just wondering if I should look at adjusting my speed? I dont have to much experience at this so any advice would be much appreciated.

thanks
 
1m/s with bi-fins as in your case is rather standard. However there are different approaches to the speed. Some people prefer fast run, others go very slow, and some change the speed in different phases. For example at the last championship it was amazing seeing Fred Sessa and Guy Brew swimming side by side in the finale- both finished at the distance around 230m (Guy did a few meters more than Fred). However, while Fred needed 2:15 for that distance, Guy enjoyed the swim double of that time - 4:30
 
As trux said, speed is rather individual. Guy can dive longer with his 9 min statics. Other guys prefer to dive faster. Those couldn't hold their breath for so long time and are able to dive with more lactic acid in their muscles. Also depend on a kind of training you do.
 
wow thats a huge difference in speed for same difference. Surely the guy that is swimming for 4:30 could speed that up a bit to cover ground more effectively? Thats just extreme is there any video footage of this event. I will stick with the speed im goin then if thats the normal for bifins.

cheers
 
There are more videos.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE_lc4zZB0E&feature=related]YouTube - Bjarte Nygard's DYN A 238m BO[/ame] here you can see also Bjarte. He is another example of static way of dznamics. He is able to dive 5 mins, too. Unfortznately there were several BOs at finals.

And Samo Jeranko. He was mazbe second fastest diver there. Try look on youtube.
 
Surely the guy that is swimming for 4:30 could speed that up a bit to cover ground more effectively?
It works rather the opposite way. Since the drag grows with square of the velocity, the faster you go, the more energy (and hence oxygen) gets wasted to overcome the drag. So you swim more economically going slower, not faster. The limiting factor here is only the basic resting metabolism / the static hold capacities. Guy has it excellent, while Fred had rather low static capacity (he improved it in the meantime by some 50%). Fred relied especially on his good physical shape with high acid lactic tolerance allowing his muscles to work under high load in anaerobic mode (without oxygen).
 
hi

Thanks heaps for that video picasso truely awsome stuff. I had no idea they had events where everyone swims together what an awsome idea especially for spectators. That guy in the first lane that blacks out swims so painfully slow amazing to see someone swim for so long though.

Trux I never thought of it like that but that makes sense, when i kick flat out i can feel my googles ripping off my face etc which would be due to speed and drag increase. At the end of a swim I always feel the need to speed up to flat stick, I seem to get some easy metres at the end by doing this. That guy that swims so slow right to the end must have the most extreme will power not to just take off flat out at the end. I will have a search around on you tube for the guys u mentioned

thanks
 
It all depends when you use the speed. If you have strong vasoconstriction from a slow start or static start you can speed up without being detrimental to the distance. A no warm up dive without facial immersion followed by a slow start doesnt seem to raise the heart rate significantly and if you dont speed up mentaly works very well.

Nat..
next weekend?
 
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One has to take into account the type of body and muscles one has.

My problem is that my muscles are very good in extracting O2 from my blood, hence my body goes later in anaerobic mode, consuming more O2 from the blood, leaving too little for my brain. I need to end a dynamic because of that, not because muscle failure. So in my training I train for muscle mass and strength, and avoid endurance because that's what my body is already very good in. I have the skinny body type of a marathon runner. At the same time I try to build up a strong dive response and deeper relaxation by doing FRC type of dives, where you start with a static and start swimming after the DR kicks in.
 
Some time ago I tried to calculate what would be the optimal speed in dynamic. I created an equation from the O2 consumption while not moving (static) and the consumption while moving, presuming that the consumption of the O2 that is used to moving varies with the square of speed. So basically: consumption (dynamic) = consumption (static) + consumption (the oxygen needed for moving). And the consumption of the oxygen needed for moving goes up with the square of speed. For example, if you go two times faster, you consume four times more energy and oxygen, and if you go three times faster, you consume nine times more energy.

From that basic idea I got into the final equation, which is in the attachment, where you insert your static PB (this tells your oxygen consumption when you are not moving), the diving speed of your DYN (or DNF) PB, and the duration of your DYN (or DNF) PB. After that you put there some other diving speed, and the equation tells you what your distance would be with that new speed. The reason for putting in your PBs is that it kind of sets the baseline by which the increases in oxygen consumption are calculated. Other option would be building a hydrodynamical model.


Couple of points and notes:

1) According to this formula, the duration of the DYN or DNF should always be half of the static PB. If you go faster than that, you consume too much oxygen for moving, and if you go slower than that, you consume too much oxygen for just holding your breath that long.

2) Your static PB and DYN/DNF PB should have had the same level of hypoxia at the end. I.e. if you don't really train statics and your PB is 4 min but you still do 200 m dynamics that last 3 min, the equation is clearly not going to work, because the static PB doesn't relate to your real capacity and thus gives wrong resting oxygen consumption.

3) The formula assumes that all the work done during the dive is aerobic. This is not how it goes in reality, as anaerobic energy mechanisms are very important part of dynamics. The equation doesn't actually calculate the oxygen consumptions, but energy consumptions. To make it more realistic, it should include anaerobic energy and the diving reflex. But that is kind of tricky, as they depend on person and also vary with speed in some way. So, as the formula gives suprisingly reasonable results, the reality is still more complicated.

Feel free to suggest how to make it work better. :)
 

Attachments

  • Equation of dynamic apnea diving speed.pdf
    53.1 KB · Views: 293
If you guys want to see what that equation suggests for you, go to Wolframalpha and input:

plot(v / ( 1/T + ( v/V )^2 * ( 1/t - 1/T ) ), {v,0,3})

where:
T=PB static in sec
t=duration of PB dyn in sec
V=speed of your PB dyn in m/s

That plots curve of new dyn performance.

And to solve optimal speed input:

solve( derive( v/ ( 1/T + ( v/V )^2 * ( 1/t - 1/T ) ) ) )

For me it gives speed of 0.77m/s while I had 1.35m/s in my PB
0.77m/s means 65s / 50m
With that speed my performance would be 115m compared to present PB 100m
 
So now you just should try it and prove your calculations :). Let us know how it works.
 
wow this is all getting a bit too technical for me. I have trouble adding and subtracting that formula might just give me a heart attack. One thing i could understand is that you should be able to swim half ur static pb in dynamic? Is that correct.

Does that mean that for example say i could do a 5min static should i be trying to swim 100m in dynamic in 2:30 or what?

Watts should be up there this weekend, depending on the ocean wheather of course :)
 
Depending on speed and how relaxed you are, you could be able dive 2:30 or more. But not alone. Try to have your buddy.
 
One has to take into account the type of body and muscles one has.

My problem is that my muscles are very good in extracting O2 from my blood, hence my body goes later in anaerobic mode, consuming more O2 from the blood, leaving too little for my brain. I need to end a dynamic because of that, not because muscle failure. So in my training I train for muscle mass and strength, and avoid endurance because that's what my body is already very good in. I have the skinny body type of a marathon runner. At the same time I try to build up a strong dive response and deeper relaxation by doing FRC type of dives, where you start with a static and start swimming after the DR kicks in.

Can anyone confirm this? This sounds very interesting.
 
Update,

The training seams to pay off.

Did a 100m dive last week, in a 25m pool, where the sensations were different - more difficult - but I came up without my usual gray head :D
This 100m was after the swimming training, when most people had left the pool and I had some space to wield my monofin :D

Because of these new sensations I did come up, and decided it was enough for the given day. Next Thursday I'll try for some more distance and discover what happens next.

I tried to swim lazy and relaxed and reasonably streamlined. I found a new appreciation for the state of relaxation before the start, and noticed how difficult it is to get back to relaxation once you're diving. So retention of relaxation seems to be the key. I swam rather slow, to avoid a high heart rate and circulation, when the vasoconstriction kicks in, I can speed up a bit. My lap times were the following: 32 - 38 - 33 - 33 (25m pool !)

Last Sunday I made another "Frog Flow" dive of 4'23", where -as usual the first two minutes were 'static' relaxation followed by 2'23" of jumping and swimming. I still was very tired that day because of a lack of sleep and lot's of travelling that weekend, and it was very noticeable in the level of relaxation. Though it didn't feel very easy, I still surfaced without a blue/gray face.
I'm very pleased to experience the new approach is working so very well. I'm looking forward to see how far I can take it.
 
Here is some uw-footage of the DYN-final in Aarhus. Very interesting to see the different aproaches to speed and technique. There are no tags to this video (except the title?) so it`s hard to find it on youtube without a direct link.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cliaMRF-YzU"]YouTube - BjarteDynWCH09[/ame]
Bjarte
 
Frederic Sessa, from France, set a new World Record in Dynamic Apnea whilst competing in the 2010 AIDA Freediving World Championships in Okinawa Japan. He completed a 255m swim underwater in 2min 37sec.
 
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