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Dynamic (w/wo fins) - giving up at the first contraction(s)

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Jo_duiker

Active Member
Jan 16, 2014
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Another try. Sigh.

My personal best in DYN with fins is 50m. And it hasn't improved in a year. Here's why:
I'm lucky if/when I can get myself to bear more than 3-4 contractions.

The first contraction is so hard and the next ones come so fast (every 2 seconds) and become so rapidly harder that I can't concentrate on anything else than thinking: "this is simply unbearable". I tried focusing on technique etc. But it's no use: the contractions are way too hard. You have no idea. My body even tends to contract entirely instead of only my stomach. I'm having a hard time to believe this is something mental is it so physically present and feeling so uncomfortable. You really have no idea.

This is frustrating as I seem to be able to stand 90 seconds+ of contractions in static: they're much softer in the beginning (even enjoyable!) and not that frequent in the beginning: every 6-7 seconds.

I realize I probably need one on one coaching in real life for this, but is there a starting point to begin/try to train to be able to stand contractions better in DYN? ANY ideas?

Or should I just give up on freediving alltogether? There's really no point in doing only statics, is there?
(I'm really that far now.)

Hope to get some input at least.
:-/
 
Let's take it this way - you should be lucky that you get strong contractions because that means you have a strong dive reflex.

From a psychological standpoint one good reasoning is that you should love the contractions because they tell you that your dive reflex has just started and it's strong. The first few contractions can be a quite strong and the urge to give up is strongest but they start to fade away as you continue. I know it sounds stupid but when you feel the worst you should try to relax the most.

DYN 50m is not a massive distance so you could try next time to at least make a turn at the end. It's only 2-3 seconds extra so you can surely manage that much. Then after a while try to do 1-2 kicks, see how that feels. 50m is usually where the biggest hurdle is so you're not the only one.

Usually the part when the dive reflex kicks in is the hardest part for new divers, the urge to quit is big. It takes mental training and slow progress to have the confidence to push over the worst part and start enjoying the best part of the dive.
 
Thanks for the reply, Lauri. I really appreciate your effort. Somehow, I already knew what you wrote, but the way you write it actually encourages me. It's been a long time since a freediver managed to do that.

For most freedivers, 50 m DYN is a simple warm up dive. For me, it really is massive: 50 m is the finish line and when I'm lucky to reach it once in a while, I feel like I've taken more hurdles than I can cope with.

I'll have to try what you say: start by just only taking that turn. But having to (try to) relax the most in the worst part sounds like I should feel the pain the least when the pain is at its highest peak. It sounds so contradictory. How on earth do you even begin to do that?
 
I have traveled also a long way, for me the key to relaxation has been raising my self-awareness and not fearing the dive reflex. It took quite a while to get used to the sensations of pressure, tingling, contractions etc but now I am somewhat able to take the feelings as natural and as said, essential to the "real" freediving.

People can push to different lenghts without any of these sensations if they rush enough but the wall will come up at some point when you need to go through the emotional stuff.
 
I found that one night of different routines helped me significantly improve my DYN. We did a few warmup swims etc. and then did delayed starts and delayed finishes. I think it went something like:
* 10 second static followed by distance swim
* 20 second static then swim
* 20 second static then longer swim
* 2o second static then swim then 10 second static at the end
etc.
(the following week I cracked the 100m mark which had previously been a big barrier for me)

This really got me to relax at the start of each dive and know that at the end of a dive I had more in the tank - proved by the fact that I wqas managing a static at the end of a swim before I came up.
 
Reactions: Webster and Penyu
Short static before and/or after a dynamic?
Great idea - have read it before, but haven't tried it yet. Must look into it. Thanks!
 
Jo_duiker said:
Short static before and/or after a dynamic?
Great idea - have read it before, but haven't tried it yet. Must look into it. Thanks!
Click to expand...
@Jo_duiker if you are familiar with 'crazy tables', a short series of empty lung breath holds, done as a warm-up to a static or dynamic you may find, as I have, that they alter what I would term as the 'profile' of the breath hold. When doing a top from a cold start (no warm-up) I find the urge to breath, when it comes, 'ramps up' quite quickly leaving the tail end of the dive quite stressful. However, the crazy table done say 5-10 minutes before the top gives a much smoother ramp, during the dive, and I find the whole experience more comfortable and I last a lot longer.

I first noticed this with STA and confirmed it the other night with DYN.
 
Reactions: Jo_duiker


I'm aware of the "Wonka" one breath table, doing a series of holds in which you do at least X seconds of contractions in each hold with only one breath between holds. But that's on full lungs. When I read that, I thought: "ok, this shouldn't get any more crazy than this" (I'm a beginner!). And now you come with a series of empty lung holds?
I also heard of a 5 minute warm up: do a series of breathholds on empty lungs with one breath between them and with two contractions per hold. And do the holds at a depth of 1m... And do this for 5 minutes without pause.

Seriously, how do these work? Oh, and be easy on the numbers. I'm a beginner. Remember?

Thanks for the idea - it does sound great to try!
 
Ok, so when I'm on the train in the morning I may use the following crazy table as a warm-up:
  1. 02:00 - breathe
  2. 01:00 - hold your breath
  3. 01:00 - breathe
  4. 01:20 - hold your breath
  5. 00:30 - breathe
  6. 01:40 - hold your breath
  7. 00:15 - breathe
  8. 01:40 - hold your breath
Total time is about 10 minutes.

When finished with the table I take a four minute breath-up then do a maximum hold (STA). Providing you have the time/space you can also do the same before doing a DYN. We did something similar before getting changed and going in the pool the other evening.

As you can see, it's going to be hard work, and you may experience contractions before the end of the table but that's not the goal of the exercise. This one is scaled back from the original, two minutes on the last two holds, version as I find that really tough. You can scale it back some more if you like.

The table is good for learning to relax into the tail end of the holds.

As they are empty lung holds you may notice your contracts feeling different because your lungs aren't jammed full of air so take it easy
 
Last edited:

You call this crazy? I'd call it impossible. Not to mention torture. I clearly said I'm a beginner. And I'm really beginning to see freediving is not going to work out for me. Apparently I'm not masochistic enough.
 
Jo_duiker said:
You call this crazy? I'd call it impossible. Not to mention torture. I clearly said I'm a beginner. And I'm really beginning to see freediving is not going to work out for me. Apparently I'm not masochistic enough.
Click to expand...

@Jo_duiker I do apologise, but please don't give up. As I said, you can tune the length of the holds according to what is a 'reasonable stretch' for you. Out of the box it's a maximum of 2:00 minutes and I find that very, very hard; that's why I shortened it to 1:40 as a warm-up for me, at present.

The three things that have made the most difference to me in the last eighteen months, I regard myself as a relative beginner, are:
  1. Really lurning how to breath properly with my diaphragm.
  2. Mindfulness relaxation and acceptance.
  3. A good breathing warm-up with these empty lung holds.
I can't say that all these things will help you, we're all different, but I do hope you find a way that allows you to continue. Freediving is an amazing journey and I've learnt a lot about what's possible and have much yet to learn.
 

I'm sorry if I offended you or any one else here with my blunt post above about masochism... Let's say I'm easily scared and intimidated. You might have noticed some frustration as well in post(s) of mine, or at least between the lines. I'm lucky everyone is so patient with me.

The thing is: I want to freedive and learn it, or at least train properly as I'm already officially an AIDA 2* (which is just a beginner, yes). The main problem is time. I don't have any. Let me put it like this: if I can go to the pool once in 4-5 weeks, I'm very lucky. So, yes, my situation is that bad. Though I am AIDA 2*, it doesn't feel like it. Well, I "barely" made it. Ok, I did 3:11 static, and I did 50m dynamic with fins, but concerning the required depth of 16m: I went 4 times to -16m, but my contractions started on my way down on all attempts. So, it wasn't easy and it felt as if an AIDA 3* will be impossible (same for the dyn discipline: for now, it simply feels impossible for me to do more than 50m dyn).

:-/

Hearing about people doing 30 m depth in constant weight without any contractions at all, not even in the last meter of their way up is quite frustrating for me. I know I shouldn't compare myself but be honest: f you get contractions on your way down at around minus 7-8 m already, that's reason enough to get frustrated, right?

Anyway. I DID try your table and barely did. But I did it! Second 1:40 was killing me though. AND... I hyperventilated and I was laying on my bed, so, doing that on the train like you: no, I won't be able to achieve that.
I'll have to lower the breathhold times as I cheated by hyperventilating and I know I shouldn't hyperventilate. Mind you: I did this dry of course. I would never do this underwater unless I have a appropriate buddy with knowlegde.
(And I wouldn't hyperventilate either, especially when I'd do it underwater.)

Still... It's very frustrating. I can only train dry and have to put my pool training on hold until I have more time AND have a buddy (which I haven't either at the moment.)

That's why I have this love-hate relationship with freediving. And the hate sometimes gets the upperhand. I'm sorry for that...

:-/
 
I hear what you're saying and I can sympathise. After 18 months I'm only an official AIDA 1* on account of my problems equalising past 5m. I've got distance and time but no depth so I know what frustration can be. Plenty of people give me advice but I so rarely get near open water (once last year), or dive tanks for that matter, that the only opportunities I get to practice equalisation is if I have to take a flight somewhere. I get the oddest looks from fellow passengers whilst I'm sat there in row 57 with a nose clip on and my checks all puffed out to here!

whilst I have no end in sight for my equalisation problems I don't let them get to me because that would make dealing with it, when I do get an opportunity, that much harder.

If you can tune the crazy table so that it is not so painful I recommend you try following it up with the four minute breath-up and then a maximum, full-lung, hold to see if, as I've found, it changes the progression of the urge to breath. If it does have a positive effect, and you're able to hold your breath for longer with less discomfort, then your body will respond positively.

I wish you great relaxation and enjoyable dives
 
Reactions: Webster
I'm doing FRC DNF (well mainly because I have yet figured out enough weight set for full lung). I lasted only about 47m, but what I found interesting is I got the same distance even I did 2 minutes face down static before swimming. As of now, I conclude the major use of my O2 is body movement, so I'm trying to optimize that.


I guess the idea is to get down as less effort as possible, maybe 8 kicks to freefall, after that O2 consumption is minimal until bottom where the start of dive actually begins. The good news is one only needs to swim to the positive zone. I never really count the kicks but if you can do X kicks in DYN before contraction, and it requires less than X kicks to do 30m depth, you might not even get a contraction.
 
Hi Jo, if you can make it, you can join in at our freediver group in Eindhoven on Tuedays evening.
With the exception of next week, I, Arnold, Fotis are there from 17:00 until 20:30 / 21:00 to enjoy the olympic 'Peter van den Hogenband' / Tongelreep pool.

I've been a long time without a freediving buddy, and without a nearby pool (banning freediving), and consequently my apnea abilities have diminished. I hate dry statics because of the discomfort. However I noticed the past weeks that my apnea abilities are gradually returning when I sleep more and when I train my body two times a week. With only 1 pool session on Tuesdays there is little to no progress. When I add a cycle day (cycling fast on my race-bike to distant friends) then my recovery times reduce and apnea times increase without more effort. Yesterday night I happily made around 2' easy frog flow dives, with ~2' intervals. Me and my friends are (re) discovering that having the time for a 2-3 hour session is rather important, as one needs time to get prepare and into the groove. Currently our training looks like this: about 30 min of frog flow diving, focussing on relaxation. Then 16x25m DNF, focussing on technique. Then some 50m DNF's. Then in the 50m training pool we coach each other doing 50m laps dynamics. Then I do some surface fin training as a warm up, followed by some coached 50m dynamics focussing on improving my inconsistent monofinning. Since my suit is not warm enough to keep me warm in the water for long, I take little brakes to warm up and coach my buddies.

The thing is that I'm now learning that there is no easy way around a minimum amount of training time. There is a limit to what you can learn and improve with just 1 session a week or a fortnight. Making the session harder does not help, and I think may actually be counter productive as the discomfort actually creates associations with feelings of pain.

Therefore my advice is, when you only can have 1 session a week:

Aim for relaxation, rhythm and technique. Limit your dives to comfort dives. When discomfort sets in, relax and go up, and go for the next joyful glide.
Seek to get more physical exercise in your week's routine, jogging, cycling etc. Adding 1 or two hours of this at a high(er) intensity level can really bring up your level of stamina fast, when combined with nutritious food and sleep. (Hunt-eat-sleep).
​
I hope this helps!
I hope you get a chance to join us at the pool, love to meet you in person.

Kars
 
Cheers, Kray and Kars!
I'd LOVE to come over to Eindhoven, but it's a 2 hour drive and I'm quite busy. Since I last posted, I haven't been to the nearby pool once. (Nearby meaning only 7 km...) Not to mention my wife who would NOT like this.
About that pool: I know Frederik Deburghgraeve, but who is Peter van den Hogenband? ;-) (We can have a bit of Belgian-Dutch rivalry, can't we? Lol!)

When and if I ever get into a pool I'll follow your advice. There was no need to describe your exercises though. Two minutes of frog flow dives are too long for me. I might get to 45 seconds, less than half of your time. And you say you are out of shape? Pfff..., but let's not get back into "getting frustrated because of all the things others can do and I can't."

I don't know how I'll ever be able to get into real freedive training, let alone other physical training. With my schedule (I'm an architect), it's rather... impossible. I can't even go to the pool once a month, so I seriously doubt whether I can even cram an extra hour a week (on top of my freedive training, if I had any) in my schedule to do some other physical training.

Simply put: there is no time. And it's not going to change any time soon - you could say "make some time", but that's easier said than done.

Sigh. Maybe I should put my stuff for sale. At least someone could have some fun with it then.
 
The architect I know has trouble finding work.. Apparently you're a successful one! (any photo's?) - I cannot imagine existing with such a busy schedule.
Is there no way to have a few hours less work? All the accompanying stress cannot be healthy in the long run.

On the frog flow exercise, it's not about time, it's about relaxation, forgetting time. One focusses on the inner world and feelings. The movements and flow of water feels nice and helps to relax. You go up whenever you feel you want. It's meant to feel easy, if it doesn't you're doing it wrong. It's meant to avoid the creating an association of pain and diving.
Having a 10-30 minute jog in the morning already makes a big difference, it also helps to clear the mind. High level CEO's often do that to be more productive even though it sounds like a contradiction.
I'm sure a reasonable wife will recognise the positive change sport will have on you. Men need some physical activity and time alone.

I hope that freediving can motivate you enough to seriously consider your needs. A total sacrifice cannot be sustained in the long run, and I hope you see you're more then a resource pigeon to others.

Courage,

Kars
 

Thanks for your patience and your kind words, Kars. Well, I say kind, but I admit I felt (slightly) insulted when you referred to being a resource pigeon to others. It's not only my work that is taking up my time. You don't know my family's/wife's situation (let me be brief: she's in a severe depression). So, I do have other obligations on a personal level not to be further discussed here. And you have to know that these obligations "force" me to be home as much as possible.

Anyway, I managed to get to the pool this morning (early) and didn't even know where to start or what to do... So, I just did, well...something. (Which was stupid to start with: doing a "training" without any plan/schedule).
Yesterday, I read about a 25 m over - under, so I tried it: 25 m snorkeling on the surface and then, immediately after that (no rest) 25 m underwater. I barely got there, and I was panting like crazy for the next 2 minutes. There's no way I will do a series of 8-10 of those with a shorter recovery of (let's say...) 30 seconds after the underwater part. (Like mentioned in the article here: http://www.adamfreediver.com/freediving/325/ ) - I didn't even try a second 25 m over - under, not even after a 5 minute rest or so.

I also tried a series of 25 m underwater (with fins) and my goals was to allow myself 8 slow breaths between them. After the first lap, I involuntarily took 10 breaths already, and I ended up doing 9-10 breaths for the next laps (instead of the 8 I planned to) and I quit after the fourth lap as I was not loving the contractions at all (like always) and I could not manage to breathe slowly - I was breathing fast - panting again like hell.

Now, before I go into depression mode - let me say two things:

1) when I say 25m, I actually mean 26,8 m. The pool I can get to only allows fins in the small pool which is 13,4 m long, so one "25m" lap is actually 2 x 13,4 m = 26,8 m for me. Besides that, the bottom is set to 2,9 m deep when fins are allowed, so when I do a lap (25 m / 26,8 m), there's a turn halfway (so, it's actually two 13,4 m laps). So, I first dive down to the bottom and swim along it. I do that because I find it easier to turn if I can place one hand on the bottom and one hand against the wall. If I swim at 1 m deep, I cannot put one hand on the bottom to pivot myself.
(So, here's a technical question: does anyone know of a good method of turning when not on the bottom?)

So, yes, my training conditions are not ideal. At all. I wish it was still allowed to use fins in the 25m section of the pool. I have to travel 45 minutes to find a pool where they allow fins in a 25 m pool, but they don't allow weights there. One hour drive gets me to a 25m pool where they do allow both. But as I said: there's so little time.

2) I think the fact that I'm panting already like crazy after only ONE "25 m" (26,8m) over-under is simply (another) confirmation of the fact that I am not fit at all. I disregard the 25m series with 8 breaths between them, because I think that I chose something too hard for my ..errr..."level". If you can even call my abilities a "level"...

Now... As mentioned, my situation keeps me home as much as possible, (for my wife, who I love more than anything - I'm happily married, thank you). Are there some exercises to be done in the house? Would apnea walking be an idea? If anyone has a table, do share. And PLEASE (pretty please?) be EASY on the numbers? I'll have to experiment anyway, as I really don't know what I am capable of.

I read an apnea walk exercise here: http://seaunseen.com/free-diving-land-training/
I tried and (of course) I got demotivated immediately, wanting to sell my mask and fins right there and then. You'll notice that it states "if you can" for the 1:30 apnea walk. This is simply impossible for me. Even the 1:15 is not yet reachable. On a good day, I can do 1:05-1:10-ish. But you have to know that by the time I reach 50 seconds, my body is bent over because of the contractions.

Any thoughts / ideas? I'm REALLY lost here.
Thanks...
 
Interesting thread. a few comments

Hang in there, experimentation and practice will work in the end.

Listen to Kars, he knows what he is talking about.

We are all different. ANY time anybody quotes times or distances, adjust them to your abilities. Stressing too hard to reach somebody else's numbers doesn't work. In general, take it slow and don't even try to get very uncomfortable. A little discomfort can be good, but not too much.

You probably have some things unique to you that are blocking. Need to figure out what they are and work on them. Possibles: you get unusually strong contractions, how can they be minimized? You may be in poor cardio shape. What can you do about that?

To minimize contractions, you might try an FRC approach. You can do this dry. The above mention of "exhales" is along this line. Try not deep breathing, just breathe normally, then take a big breath, exhale all the way and inhale a little less than half, hold. You should see contractions come on somewhat quicker, but softer, maybe a lot softer. Don't worry about time, just play with the technique and see if you end up going longer into contractions before they get too hard. If you get to the pool, same technique, maybe one extra big breathe and inhale slightly more (about half), then static for half your normal dive time. You should be able, with practice, to get the same distance and much longer time. Again, play with it, see what works and what doesn't

Contractions on the way down on a relatively short dive? Something ain't right. Too much hyperventilation(its insidiously easy), too little breathup, not enough weight, too much work going down, not relaxed enough(this is a biggie), some combination that works with you strong tendency to contractions. Get the technique better and this problem should go away.

Kars is on to something with the fast bike day. I'm seeing something similar.

Connor
 
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