effective gym training advice needed

[marc25]

hi

last time in the gym i thought about making my gym training more effective. right now i am making intervall training on a crosstrainer. 3 minutes low level, 3 minutes medium level, 3 minutes low..... for 45-60 minutes.

i think the main goal of the training should be making the muscels use minimum oxigen for the work in apnea.
the second goal of course is lowering the rest heart rate.

there are imho 3 ways of kind of training:
a) long time, low level
b) short time, hi level
c) intervall training changing between low and high(medium) level.

what do you think would be best if your apnea pb are something like:
cw 40/50m, dyn 100/120m

what parameters should be changed (if) in the gymtraining to improve?

can you give a specific training table like:
"interval training for 60 minutes, 3 minute low level (restlevel), 3 minutes medium level (workoutlevel). rais workoutlevel as high as possible."

greetings,

marc

 

[drunkinbda]

I dont know enough to get into details, but from my understanding most freediving muscles are fast twitch. Basically tailoring your workout to anaerobic with some crosstraining to keep the aerobic levels up is best. Basically short and fast...but definitely with some aerobic to allow for better recovery.

from rereading that it just seems very generic >.<


This is just from my limited knowledge but i have confidence that if im way wrong ill have 10 different people just waiting to jump in and tell me that :martial

 

[marc25]

thanks for the answer, drunkibda,

i asked one of the trainers in the gym, but he didnt know, but wanted to do some research. i will post his advice (if i get some.....)

greetings,
marc

 

[TRITON]

That's not completely true.....i think aerobic fitness is as important as anaerobic because as I learned in the first part of the dive your body works aerobicly and in some point switches to anaerobic mode.So both are important and should be trained.

I dont know enough to get into details, but from my understanding most freediving muscles are fast twitch. Basically tailoring your workout to anaerobic with some crosstraining to keep the aerobic levels up is best. Basically short and fast...but definitely with some aerobic to allow for better recovery.

from rereading that it just seems very generic >.<


This is just from my limited knowledge but i have confidence that if im way wrong ill have 10 different people just waiting to jump in and tell me that :martial

 

[spearstudtx]

I am new to freediving, but not physical training (this is my realm ). That said, here is what I think about training for freediving:

Both aerobic and anaerobic fitness are important in training for freediving, but due to the nature of freediving it is detrimental for a person to put on excess muscle through anaerobic training (more muscle=more oxygen use).



Anaerobic Training (weight training):

Anaerobic training is important in freediving because the stronger your legs are, the easier it is to make long, strong strokes and the less your legs are tired by each stroke. Anaerobic training reaches a point in sports like freediving that it can actually become detrimental. It is of most value used to form and keep a strong base of muscle in the core and legs.

The majority of the muscles you will use will be in your lower body and core, and will be a mix of fast and slow-twitch muscles with the majority of those being fast-twitch. Thus anaerobic fitness in the core and lower body is very important. Some exercises that will help with this are Front and Back Squats (quads, core, glutes) , Leg Curls (hamstrings), Morning Glory (hamstrings, back), and Calf Raises. IMPORTANT: Do very light weight MANY times (more reps, less weight) because it mimics what your muscles will be doing in freediving. If you are at a gym, tell a trainer that you need to concentrate on your core (abs, back) and lower body (CALVES, HAMSTRINGS, QUADS, GLUTES, and HIP FLEXORS) and he can tell you what exercises to do and how to do them. Or look them up online.



Aerobic Training (cardio training):

Aerobic Training is important in freediving due to the importance of optimal oxygen consumption in freediving. Aerobic training is the more effective of the two after establishing a strong base of muscle in the core and legs. The lower your resting and sub max exercise heart rates are the less oxygen you consume.

There are a ton of ways to train your cardiovascular and respiratory system to be more efficient but the ones that will me most effective for the freediver (on land) are running and biking (in that order) because of the use of the lower body and core. To break it down further than that, the use of sprint intervals (sprint for 30 sec and walk for 1 min, repeat) and interval training on a bike (hills or fast pedaling followed by a more relaxed pace, repeat) will be more effective than long distance running/biking for the freediver. Also, your body responds to this kind of training best when done around the 20-30 minutes (depending on age, weight, desired result, fitness, etc).

Alternate between aerobic/anaerobic training throughout the week (Mon - weights, Wed - run, etc) and start slowly. Dont train when you are sore. Stretch all muscles used before and after training. Eat well (that's a whole 'nother topic).

This is just a general outline on improving fitness for freediving, I cannot give specifics without knowing a whole lot more about the client.

Good luck,

Nate

 

[settingsteel]

without getting too much into details you should first and most importantantly limit your actual weight training WO to a max of 1hr 15min. anything beyond that you are overtraining, do anaerobics (wts) 3-4x/wk and aerobic 2-3x/wk for- diving those aerobic should be geared towards WO similiar to dive conditions.

 

[immerlustig]

specificity

before thinking about exercises and cross training you should first think about your goal. what do you want to do? max deep dives, easy repetitive shallow dives, etc. without specific training you will not reap any great benefit from your otherwise non-specific cross-training.

if you want to simulate the demand of a freedive in the gym you need to establish first what kind of effort you make during that dive, what muscle groups are involved, what intensity they are working, etc. afterwards you try to find exercises that closely simulate that. and don't forget there's apnea involved

cross training will never be as effective as doing the real thing, so don't expect too much. aerobic training and gym training are nice to develop a base level of fitness, do that in your diving off-season. when you get to dive do dive training. the further you progress the more specific your training should be. finally you only do max dives (if this is what you want to do).

specificity is key. having said that i'd even go so far and claim that cross training is way overrated. making more effort to get wet will eventually be much more beneficial. but i'm not saying that greater personal fitness isn't a great thing, mind you!

personally i don't know anyone who does serious diving preparation in the gym. if you want to get serious about performance and improvements in freediving you have to spend quality time in the water.

my 2c

roland

 

[marc25]

@ spearstudtx
so my training on the "crosstrainer" with 45min intervalltraining
and light weight training (low weight, 20-25 reps, training mainly core and legs) seems to be o.k.

@ settingsteel
i train less than 1 h weights! much less ;-)

@ immerlustig
the goal is a max dive (static, dynamic and cw)
i know that it would be better to go into the lake or the pool, but our pooltimes are limited (and the buddies time). i go to the gym anyway 2 times a week and just wanted to make the training more effective for apnea and not "contraeffective"

thanks for the answers to everyone,
marc

 

[Mullins]

Being aerobically fit might not help your apnea directly, but at least it will allow you to recover from high intensity apnea sessions when you do start to train more specifically.

 

[spearstudtx]

personally i don't know anyone who does serious diving preparation in the gym. if you want to get serious about performance and improvements in freediving you have to spend quality time in the water.

my 2c

roland

@ roland, never subscribed to the thought process "if it works, why is no one doing it". I agree that the more specific your training the more it will help achieve your goal, but without a doubt training in the gym WILL INCREASE your freediving ability. Time in the water is always better, and that is a good point, but that wasn't part of the question.

@ marc25, your training will help mildly. Step it up, sprint/walk in intervals, start with 30 sec sprints and 1 min walks for 20 min. This will SMOKE you. Step it up when you can again. Also when working your core and lower body, use exercises involving multiple muscle groups or "compound exercises" (ie squats, lunges, good mornings, leg curls, deadlifts). Also, stretch and start slowly.

 

[immerlustig]

hi,

not sure i understand that. can you explain, please?

roland, never subscribed to the thought process "if it works, why is no one doing it".

cheers

 

[spearstudtx]

sure. in this case roland said that he doesnt know anyone who does serious dive (freediving) preparation in the gym. so what i meant by that was: "just because you dont know anyone who does dive preparation in the gym, doesnt mean that it doesnt or wont work." i believe, and correct me roland if i am wrong, that essentially roland was saying that because he doesnt know anyone who does dive prep at the gym, it wont make much of a difference. i never really thought like that. there are a ton of things that people dont do on a regular basis that are obviously beneficial. look around, you will see it all the time. just for the record i am not trying to be antagonistic and want this to remain a discussion not an argument.

Regards,

spearstudtx

 

[apneaboy]

I pretty much know he knows a lot of good freedivers though ;-)

If you can find a gym with a pool too you can get the best of all worlds.

Its like saying have you ever met a marathon runner that doesn't run. If you have time to spare the gym will help a bit but get out diving is the way forward. Just train technique in a pool then when you have good safety cover go for a push.

I have heard a rumour of a top freediver doing a lot of apnea cycling. But to be fair they dive whenever they can too.

 

[spearstudtx]

I pretty much know he knows a lot of good freedivers though ;-)

If you can find a gym with a pool too you can get the best of all worlds.

Its like saying have you ever met a marathon runner that doesn't run. If you have time to spare the gym will help a bit but get out diving is the way forward. Just train technique in a pool then when you have good safety cover go for a push.

I have heard a rumour of a top freediver doing a lot of apnea cycling. But to be fair they dive whenever they can too.

I thoroughly agree with you. If you are a sprinter, sprints will help you the most, if you are a freediver, freediving will help you the most, if you are a cycler, cycling will help the most. I apologize for seeming abrasive or argumentative, but just for the record, sprinters also work in the gym (I ran track), cycles also use other forms of cardio, and Kobe boxes to help with his endurance in basketball. Improving overall physical condition will always help in any physically demanding sport.

spearstudtx

 

[marc25]

i know that apnoetraining in the water will help most, so i train 2 times a week.
but there are times, when i dont have the chance to train in the pool and i want an alternative then. apnoewalking i do sometimes also.
as i remember i have seen an interview with herbert nitsch and he does quite regular gym training when he cant get in the water.
also mandy-rea cruickshank says on her homepage that she does gym training
(Mandy-Rae Cruickshank)
pellizari in his book tells about the gym training too.
so i think gym training cant replace apneatraining, but it can be a good addition or alternative for the times, when you dont have the chance for apnea trining in the water.

@ spearstudtx
i tried it today in the gym. sprints and walking was really hard.
unfortunately i can only "program" the crosstrainer in intervalls that are the same, like 1 minute running, 1 minute walking. today i started much to fast so i was tired to early. i will try next time in the manual mode like you said (30sec running, 1 minute walking, for 20 minutes). should i increase the level of resistance in the sprint interval?
if i will make it, shold i increase the total time (20min), the running time or the walking time?

Thanks for the help
marc

 

[spearstudtx]

@ spearstudtx
i tried it today in the gym. sprints and walking was really hard.
unfortunately i can only "program" the crosstrainer in intervalls that are the same, like 1 minute running, 1 minute walking. today i started much to fast so i was tired to early. i will try next time in the manual mode like you said (30sec running, 1 minute walking, for 20 minutes). should i increase the level of resistance in the sprint interval?
if i will make it, shold i increase the total time (20min), the running time or the walking time?

Thanks for the help
marc

Yeah it is hard, if it gets easy step it up so it is hard again.

Personally I would find a track for days when you want to do cardio or for after your weight w/o, sprint 30 walk 1 min. When you feel that getting easier sprint 30 walk 45 or sprint 45 walk 1 min (increase sprint time or decrease walk time). Mixing it up will only help you, same in the gym, dont do the same exercises day in day out.

I wouldnt increase the time spent doing sprints for at least 4 or 5 weeks and even then not too much. Maybe 25 min max. If you are going to do anything past that, just do several 800 meter sprints, let your heart rate drop and breathing return to almost normal, and do them again. As long as you push yourself every day you train you will improve. By the way at the track, each lap is 400 meters.

I did a little homework and I think that physiologically (outside of actually freediving of course :duh) sprint intervals are probably the best training.

Best of luck with your training, I am starting some myself after 3 mo hiatus. After I make my routine up, I will post all the details.

Spearstudtx

 

[marc25]

hello,

reading on herbertnitsch.com articles mercedesmagazin
(Mercedes Magazin)
(german articel) he writes, that he trains in the gym on a ergometer (bike), breathing just once per minute!

so i thought about starting with cycling for 10 minutes on a low level, breathing every 20 seconds.
did this on monday. man, that becomes hard after some minutes and i feel very warm!
tried to breath every 30 seconds today (2 breaths) but thats too hard right now.

what do you think about this?

marc

 

[uw_ikarus]

:hmm:hmmGoing through Umberto Pelizzari's freediving manual, one learns that apnea training encompasses many activityies, basically depending on the season. Roughly speaking: Jogging / Running is oK in winter, also muscle tonification in the gym. As the year proceeds towards summer, activity in water (pool sessions, open water) becomes increasingly important. In conclusion, my feeling is a good exercise plan cannot be written down just in a few lines....going through a serious freediving text book is certainly worthwhile.

 

[rogam44]

he writes, that he trains in the gym on a ergometer (bike), breathing just once per minute!

This is very hard CO2 training. I would struggle hold my breath and breathe once per minute while sitting on chair.
I tried it with one breath after 20 seconds hold like you did and after four cycles I had constant contractions all the time. Very hard.