Elios Heiwa soft or medium density?

[hudja]

Hi! I am looking for the new Elios suit. I already got one early this year made from Yamamoto 45 5mm with lining outside. I will use my new suit for the water temps. 3-10C and depths of around 10 meters. I decided to go for the jacket from open cell/smoothskin 8mm and pants made from 7,5mm open cell/Kanoko elastic lining outside. I choose smooth jacket because of elasticity and softness, but I need durability, read outer lining, for my pants. Smoothskin Heiwa for jacket comes only in medium density, but Heiwa with lining outside for pants is available in soft and medium density. I asked Elios about which one to choose for my pants and they wrote that

The soft density rubber is compare with Yamamoto, like soft, elasticity and comfort. The medium density is little more hard, for sure more durable and resistance in deep, but in any case the durability of neoprene soft or medium depend principally from the range of depht. If you will make shallow divings in the winter, non necessary medium density...


Now I want to ask you, what did they mean under shallow diving, 2, 10 or 20 meters? I will mainly spearfish at 10-13 meters, spending about 1 hour on apnea at this depth per session and spearfishing 2-4 times per week. This makes 20-30 apnea hours spent at 10 meters during cold-water season (mid-late autumn, early winter and late spring). I noticed that my Elios Yamamoto 45 Mimetic Stone 5mm has already lost some buoyancy after 2 months of 3-4 times per week usage. My dive computer shows that I used my Yamamoto 45 suit for about 25 hours on apnea and now I already need 1 to 1,5 kg less weight in comparison to the new suit for the same working depth. I understand that this is a natural process, but how will the density of neoprene influence it?

So the question is: If medium density Heiwa will become less compressed / thin after one season of extensive usage in comparison to the soft density Heiwa, given the working depth of around 10 meters? If the difference will be minimal I will go for the more elasticity, this means soft density Heiwa or even Yamamoto 45. ...my pants will be 7,5mm thick and I really do not want to lose some extra softness. Nevertheless, if this difference will be noticeable enough I will prefer to order Heiwa medium density.

Uhhhh, very long post!

Thank you for simply reading completely through it! :friday:friday:friday

 

[Kars]

Maybe just go for heiwa medium with a lesser thickness? 5mm?
Less thickness means also less movement restriction, and also less buoyancy change as a bonus.

A friend of mine in Spain uses in the winter a 7mm freedown suit, he swears by it.

What I do is use a 3mm suit and wear a vest and swimcap underneath, this also gives me much more warmth -where I need it- and still allows for easy movement of my limbs.

I hope that some other with more specific info can help you out.

Good luck,

Kars

 

[hudja]

Kars
Thank you, but this is not an option. The majority of time I will use it in water below 10C. I already have 5mm yamamoto and it is very cold after 4-5 hours in water of about 10-12C. I new about vests, but the rule of thumb, is that 7mm neoprene is much warmer, that 5mm plus 2mm vest. That is why I'll even go for 8mm top and 7.5mm pants. I do not need so much protection for the jacket and I'll take more elastic medium density smoothskin, because smoothskin comes only in medium denisty it is a bit more complicated with pants, I can either get soft or medium... and the dilemma itself is in my previous post

 

[sross]

Hi Hudja,

Medium density neoprenes are more relevant for SCUBA divers. If you're going really deep (say 20 m or deeper) and staying there a long time, compression of the soft density of neoprene can dramatically reduce its thickness & insulating ability. Trying to stay for, say, 20 minutes at 30 m in a suit that has changed from a 7 mm to a 5 mm thickness can get pretty cold. Also, the medium density neoprene is tougher, but I personally think that nylon lining gives you much more tear resistance than density ever will.

The downside of the medium densities if that they have less stretch and flexibility. This means the fit isn't as good, and poorer fit means more water leakage and more tendency to chafe. The suit also feels stiff, and IME you feel like you are kind of working against the material when you swim. I used to have to wear those suits all the time back in my working dive days, and I won't mind if I never have to see one again.

For spearfishing guys who don't go super deep, soft density is always the way to go. Soft density neoprene is always warmer, and feels much nicer to swim in when you're doing something active like spearfishing.

If you're going to 13 m, and you're only going to be down there for a few minutes at a time, the amount of heat you'll lose to suit compression will be minimal. Also, you'll be going back up and generating heat during your surface interval. Definitely go soft. If you've got an outer lining on the pants, durability won't be an issue, and you'll just have to keep a repair kit handy for the jacket, not a big deal.

 

[hudja]

sross

Thanks! The thing is that there is no soft density smoothskin neoprene, elios sad that that the soft density without lining outside would be too delicate to wear. So, for my jacket I have to choose between soft heiwa with kanoko/superelastic lining outside or medium density smoothskin. Which one would be softer, note the MD is without lining!

 

[sross]

Hi Hudjia,

I'd have to say that I personally think a suit of medium density neoprene with no lining, both home made or commerially made, is more flexible & comfortable than a soft density lined suit, even with open cell on the inside. Others may disagree?

I have also tried stretching unlined material and various soft & medium lined neoprenes of various people's suits. I have to estimate application of a constant force, since I don't have a fish-scale or other device to measure a calibrated force, but anyhow, the unlined neoprene always stretches much more.

That doesn't say that the soft neoprene with lining might provide better insulation than any medium density material, due to higher air content. I don't know enough about how the material s made to say whether there is significantly greater air content, and it would probably take instrumentation, like temperature probes to estimate the insulating ability?

Anyhow, if you get lined pants & unlined top you'll be able to make a direct comparison of how the 2 materials feel.

 

[Erik]

Myself I prefer the medium density suits and will put up with the stiffness.
However the amount of time you spend in the water is very high, so I'd go with the thickest soft suit possible; bearing in mind that the suit will die sooner. You will probably need a new suit every year. But of primary importance is your comfort and warmth while you are diving, not how many suits you need to buy in a lifetime.

Cheers,
Erik

 

[sross]

sross

Thanks! The thing is that there is no soft density smoothskin neoprene, elios sad that that the soft density without lining outside would be too delicate to wear.

Hi Hudja,

Just thought I should add, that while Elios doesn't sell soft density unlined suits, there are a few other companies making them.

For example, the suits that Oceaner makes for PFI are made from Yamamoto 45 neoprene, one of the softest & stretchiest neoprenes available. Performance Freediving

Elios is right that the durability is low on soft density neoprene. Not a big deal, though. You have your trusty can of neoprene cement in your kit bag, and it only takes a couple of minutes to get things glued back together when you get a tear.

Elios does seem to have a fetish about durability. I asked them one time if they would make a steamer/jumpsuit-style one piecer out of smoothskin both sides neoprene, and they said the would only make them out of nylon-lined material because of durability. There's absolutely no problem getting into an unlined one-piece if you use lube properly, but what can you say- other people will also make that kind of suit . . .

 

[bryson]

Hi all,

does anyone know what grade of hiewa xxone uses?

Bryson.