External rebreather balloon to extend apnea

[baiyoke]

Hi.

Just a quick question, I'll keep it simpel, since it might have been discussed allready:

In static I could bring a balloon. I start my dive, and under water I blow air into the balloon and bite. Soon after the MDR has kicked in, and therfore I'm saving O2. Then I release the bite pressure, so air slowly goes in my lungs. Slowly, so I don't get pushed out of MDR mode (a mechanism could be made, so contractions doesn't sucks air in, but air is released at a preeset rate through a tiny hole).

Wouldn't that theoretically extend my divetime?

I don't know if it would be usefull for actual diving at depths, but keeping it simpel, would it work in static?

 

[Simos]

I think it would work - you can try starting a (dry) static from empty lung and then sip a bit of air in when it gets tough, hold a bit longer and then sip a bit more air in and so on. If you keep doing this until you are on full lung and then continue holding for as long as you can, you will probably find out that the total length of apnea is longer than your dry PB. There are some other reasons why this could be but I believe early onset of vasoconstriction etc has a part to play...

 

[efattah]

If you do this, you gain approximately 1 minute in static. I have tried it many times, and always gain 1 minute. However, it is not legal in a competition.

 

[Kars]

LOL, when you think you thought of something new, Eric already has the data

 

[Apneaddict]

Given big lungs, a big brain, an analytical nature and time... You know he will have found a few things that work repeatedly.

I think it would be scary to hear of all of the things he's tried that doesn't work!

 

[baiyoke]

He he - thanks for reply.

Perhaps then the benefit would be greater when doing DYN/DNF//depth. I wonder if lactic acid would be the limiting factor then, and not blackout...

Not with an actual balloon sticking out your mouth though

 

[efattah]

Given big lungs, a big brain, an analytical nature and time... You know he will have found a few things that work repeatedly.

I think it would be scary to hear of all of the things he's tried that doesn't work!

I have done hundreds and hundreds of failed experiments related to freediving.... I would say of all the experiments, fewer than 30 resulted in positive effect!

When I send my friends updates, the e-mail title is usually something like this:
"Failed Experiment #1017: Detailed Log"

 

[harrychamas]

For deeper dives the rebreather wouldnt work as most people reach there vc at 30m, and for me static is just to traing for depth so i wouldnt do somthing in a static that i wouldnt do for a dive (such as hyperventilation). i imagine its greatest potential would be for spear fishermen incase they needed to extend a dive for obvious reasons.
well made versions or rebreathers do exsist, i used one when i was in the marines. its kind of a backpack design and is there incase the amphibious vehicle "viking" starts to sink. they said you could get 3 breaths out of it but i imagine this would be quite reduced in a trained freediver as you will be using much more of the O2 before you breath out.

 

[efattah]

The balloon in fact would be tremendously effective for deep dives, even more so than for static. By exhaling into the balloon, you would experience chest collapse much sooner than otherwise, drastically amplifying the blood shift, and getting an RV-style blood shift on an inhale dive. You would then re-inhale from the balloon near the end of the dive.

I don't recommend trying it though since there are many risks involved.

 

[jome]

If you do this, you gain approximately 1 minute in static. I have tried it many times, and always gain 1 minute. However, it is not legal in a competition.

Rules don't say much about the volume or flexibility of one's mask though

 

[hteas]

I think there was a thread about using a baloon for CO2 tolerance. The results was some sort of toxicity from the rubber or a chemical coating on it. Anyone else remember the thread?

 

[Kars]

I remember, the thing is normal and cheap balloons have talk powder in them to prevent the rubber sticking together. Inflating them is ok, inhaling from them is (very)harmful. The DB user Dragon Fly found out the hard way and suffered greatly and is still suffering?

Better be careful with how we use materials, things are often not as harmless as we often assume.

 

[harrychamas]

The balloon in fact would be tremendously effective for deep dives, even more so than for static. By exhaling into the balloon, you would experience chest collapse much sooner than otherwise, drastically amplifying the blood shift, and getting an RV-style blood shift on an inhale dive. You would then re-inhale from the balloon near the end of the dive.

I have to dissagree that it would be affective for deep dives, take for example a 30m RV dive with a diver with a 6l tlc and a 25% RV. Now 30m is not deep by any means but the blood shift would have to be equivilent to a 150m dive. A 60m dive would be like going to 270m - much deeper than any freediver has gone before.

Also there is no way to do the math for PP on a VC dive but since you are using most of your O2 during a deep dive in the first part, you might be reaching your blackout point before there is even any air in the bag.

so although in theiry inducing blood shift will increase the dive reflex, in practice it just doesnt mke any sence for a genuine deep dive.

 

[Simos]

Rules don't say much about the volume or flexibility of one's mask though

I am sure there must be something in the rules regarding mask volume, no? I think I remember seeing something but I am not 100%.

This works for NLT where the EQEX is allowed though...

 

[baiyoke]

I have to dissagree that it would be affective for deep dives, take for example a 30m RV dive with a diver with a 6l tlc and a 25% RV. Now 30m is not deep by any means but the blood shift would have to be equivilent to a 150m dive. A 60m dive would be like going to 270m - much deeper than any freediver has gone before.

Also there is no way to do the math for PP on a VC dive but since you are using most of your O2 during a deep dive in the first part, you might be reaching your blackout point before there is even any air in the bag.

so although in theiry inducing blood shift will increase the dive reflex, in practice it just doesnt mke any sence for a genuine deep dive. .

I see it just the opposite way, and agree with Eric that it would (theoretically) be much more effective in deep dives:

About using most of your O2 in the first part of the deep dive: I would say you use be fare most of your O2 in the second part, after the turn, when you are negative.... Unless you talk specifically about the O2 in the lungs on a normal dive. But this way you would NOT use that O2, because it would be in the balloon. If your concern is that there would not be eneugh O2 in the (empty) lungs to avoid deep BO, you could just inhale a little say half way down. I follow your concern that you would have to know your limits, and be sure you don't BO deep. You would have to be experienced with empty lung diving. I also share your concern about the simulation of a much deeper dive, but some people might have the flexibility.

And no matter what, the use of O2 is exactly why it would be so effective... The more O2 it takes, the more effective. With a fast induced vasoconstriction, you would most likely NOT use up your O2 and blackout, but you would probably build up a bit of lactid acid in your muscles instead, even if not moving on the way down (wich could be dangerous for other reasons, like not being able to reach surface from a very deep turn at fx 150 CWT). But in my view you would have O2 for the brain, especially if you put on a few extra kilos; quick easy descent + early vasoconstriction = consciousness at bottom plate.

Off course this is all theory, but in theory I think it would work.

But to avoid all the above problems, it would perhaps be more aplicable in dynamic dives...

Eric: Not that I want to try it, but what would the dangers be? One of course is the simulation of a much deeper dive. What else could happen?

 

[Simos]

Rules don't say much about the volume or flexibility of one's mask though

I think you might be right Simo, off to find the biggest mask in the world

 

[harrychamas]

About using most of your O2 in the first part of the deep dive: I would say you use be fare most of your O2 in the second part, after the turn, when you are negative.... Unless you talk specifically about the O2 in the lungs on a normal dive. But this way you would NOT use that O2, because it would be in the balloon. If your concern is that there would not be eneugh O2 in the (empty) lungs to avoid deep BO, you could just inhale a little say half way down. I follow your concern that you would have to know your limits, and be sure you don't BO deep. You would have to be experienced with empty lung diving. I also share your concern about the simulation of a much deeper dive, but some people might have the flexibility.

I think it all just depends on how deep the intended dive will be. i mean if your dipping down to 20 or 30m then there is not much danger. but just taking a breath on the way down stops being a option not long after that.

also when i said the "first" part of the dive i was talking about the part before you can take a breath. for example if you did manage to dive to 60m you'd have to do the 60m down + 30 - 40m back up before there will be much air in the bag. so 90 - 100 out of 120m of the dive will be without air in the bag.

it do like the idea, though. when i do RV dives its the pain in my chest that turns me round, with a rebreather i could take a little sip of air and keep increasing my depth untill the pain is back, and repeat. kind of like diaphram stretching reps.

As for there being plenty of 02 for your brain on a empty lung dive, People black out at 40m with full lungs so i'm sure i dont have to tell you to increase depth slowly. Have fun and let me know how you get on.