Failing of respiratory center

[pingshui]

I came upon a question that I have no answer to. Maybe the experts here can help.

I was discussing CO2 training with somebody, especially the one-breath table (only one breath between a series of 8 or more "shorter" apneas). Well, I was told that it would be dangerous to use this table, because too much CO2 would build up until finally the respiratory center fails.
So my questions are:
- how probable is this to happen?
- wouldn't such a failure of the respiratiry center be fatal when doing a dry static on my own?

Well, I used this table quite a lot already and so far nothing has failed. But I want to be sure not to risk my life!

 

[Simos]

Hi PingShui

First of all, it's better to wait for advice on someone more knowledgeable than me on this. However, a few thoughts/questions:

1. How long are your holds? Do you vary the duration? I am not sure if you are working on Co2 tolerance or low o2 tolerance or both?

2. There is such a thing as a hypercapnic blackout if co2 levels get too high. Not sure if/how you recover from it - I would imagine than breathing pure o2 would help... It is quite hard from what I know to get a hypercapnic blackout - it's usually associated with max static attempts using o2 for breathup.

3. We do sometimes something similar - we call them minute holds. Basically you hold for 1 min, then 3 breaths then hold for 1 min etc. It's mostly as warmup...

4. Why are you doing those holds? Is it to train co2 tolerance? If yes why don't you do the standard co2 table? If you are not timing the holds you are doing now it would be difficult to know how much you are progressing and whether even you are training purely your co2 tolerance. Sounds like it could be a mix of both ie high co2 and low o2. Might be better off doing the two tables co2 and o2 separately so that you know what you are training for.

Like all apnea exercises, they become dangerous when you push too hard and you don listen to your body. So I don't think the exercise you are doing is an exception. There are plenty of other ways of building up co2 in the body (most Freediving training revolves around this) hence all of these would be subject to the same risks if you push too much...
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[Simos]

Also are you getting headaches after you do this training?
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[pingshui]

As far as I know it is a CO2 table and that also is what I want to train. Here are my answers

1. What I basically do, depending on how good I feel on a given day:

hold 75-90 sek
1 breath
hold 75-90 sek
...
I do this eight or nine times, but the time I hold always stays the same for one table. If it gets too easy, I will increase times during next training session. Of course I time my dives to control my progress.

2. I also only heard of it in combination of pure o2-breathing prior to statics

3. sound like a nice warm up to consider

4. It is for CO2 tolerance. It works like a standard CO2 table I guess, only with your breaks limited to one breath. But please correct me, if I am wrong. I do not see though, how this would be an o2 table, since breath holds are quite short, but once again, I might be wrong

5. I had no headache from it yet, but it helped to improve my static performance from 4:20-5:20. I don't know if it is the right way how to train at this stage, I would really be happy on some advice! Especially as I do not want to kill myself!

 

[Simos]

I didn't know if your holds were of a constant duration or not. Since your rest period is constant if your holds were getting progressively longer it would start to resemble an 02 table as in the co2 tables the holds are constant and the rest period getting less.

In your table both are constant (rest period and hold) so it's some kind of cross of both pingshui but i think it's hard to tell what is really going on.

I think whether your training your co2 tolerance or o2 might depend on what is currently limiting you since everything is constant and you are sustaining it over 8 or 9 cycles. Does it feel like the holds are getting harder and harder or do they feel of equal difficulty after the first couple?

I think it would be possible for your table to also lower o2, even if the holds are short. Certainly as you progress in it and make them longer this will be possible. Obviously even with one breath you are getting rid of some Co2...

Why don't you try a CO2 table and compare how it feels?
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[pingshui]

You might be right that it is a mixture of both tables.

The holds definitly get harder as contractions kick in earlier from hold to hold, which to me suggests building up CO2 tolerance. So far my head was always clear in the end, so I guess low O2 has not yet been a real issue to me. Of course this could become when the hold periods increase.

I started with "normal" CO2 tables, but the last one was about 4 month ago. As far as I recall it the effect was similar: contractions came earlier from hold to hold.
The reason why I switched to the "one-breath" method was partly a practical one: it saved a lot of time And during the past month and still now time is quite limited for me right now. And at least I got some improvement out of it, although spending less time on tables. But maybe my body and especially my mind simply got used to the whole breath-holding and I got more relaxed

But I still ask myself if this kind of table is dangerous or not???

 

[Simos]

When I was asking you why you are doing this I had a feeling it might do with limited time I don't like tables much because they take long and I don't have much time either :-(

Needs someone more experienced to say if they are dangerous but if all that is happening is co2 buildup as long as you are sensible I don't see why they would be so much more dangerous.

It could be possible to shorten the co2 table significantly by starting with much shorter breaks..

Also you could try experiementing a bit as well with other ways: you could do for example as many pushups as you can as fast as you can and then just do a hold without a break. You might get contractions as quickly as 15-20 secs into the hold...
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[pingshui]

Well, I hate push-ups at least as much as I hate dry static But being closer to the ground than in apnea-walks is safer when training alone. Or I do "cycling" on my back, this way I won't even hit my nose when I accidentially pass out^^

I thought about it now and one-breath table might really be some kind of mixed up thing. I think I will start the other tables again, maybe decreasing resting period by one breath each hold until one breath for the last. But anyway, my CO2 tolerance already is quite good now and it would be time to do more o2 tables, which take even more time :head

 

[Simos]

http://forums.deeperblue.com/beginner-freediving/90966-unknown-new-phase-2.html

Look at Eric's post - looks like the table you're doing....
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[silkyshark]

Hey Pingshui, the 1 breath CO2 table I do but differently than what you have been doing...it goes like this:
breath hold till 1st contraction + 45sec (contraction time can be varied); 1 breath then repeat for 12 times. This means that your breath hold time decreases after your 1st hold and you do not use time but contractions to build up the CO2. This table ends up on my 10th hold as a 55sec breath hold This is a safer way than what you have been doing as this does not even touch your O2 levels and you go by how your body and head are doing on the day (i.e the more relaxed your dives are the later your contractions start).
The golden rule in training tables is do not attempt an O2 and CO2 table on the same day.

As for respiratory failure due to hypercapnia...that I have not heard of before, but now am intrigued and will investigate further.

Dive free, safe & happy

 

[pingshui]

I really like your variation of the table and will try it, but maybe less than 45sec contractions. I am too lazy

 

[Kars]

During a competition 16x50m dynamic in Germany, I did go through some CO2 phases.

As you know 16x50m apnea is a challenge of efficiency and CO2 tolerance.

My schedule like the following:

start - 29-33 sec of swimming, surface-breath-start (18 - 14 seconds of breathing) before: 0:47 - start next apnea swim.

The first 4 lanes were going from easy to very hard, thanks to the increase in CO2. After lane 4 there is a plateau, where you sort of have the idea that though it is very difficult I can hold on and do this schedule. After lane 8 I hit another breakpoint, with the high CO2 and blood pumping like crazy through my head, with the haze feeling and idea of giving up. With a little longer break of an extra 15 seconds of breathing I proceeded thanks to coaching from Igor! Igor and I managed even in the end to make up for the time lost in the extended 8 th lane break, landing me a total time of 16x50m in 12'41". After I touched the wall did the OK etc and waited for the card, I had a 'CO2' headache that lasted for about 15 minutes. It was not really painful, and not in anyway comparable to an disease headache I recall from a distant past. I felt more like a hazy pressure, slowly deflating.

I don't know how far I've pushed it on the scale to a CO2 BO, but in retro respect I think I could have done some more lanes at that pace.

I don't know if others will go through the same process, but you may now have a sort of bearing how far you are on my 'scale'

Furthermore I don't have a clue about "Failing of respiratory center". The only thing I could come up with is that apparently dolphins need to consciously breath. Also Herbert noted in one TV show that the urge to breath can be trained out. My impression is that one can shift this urge a long way and maybe all the way, but it will not be away completely or forever.

Interestingly Branko, the talented Croatian man, doing 1/2 of the year daily 6+ hours of spearfishing explained that his urge to breath and contractions come very late, just less than a minute before BO. Now he has done specific static training, he extended that contraction time minutes. If I recall correctly his urge to breath starts at about 6' and he held on to a National Record of 9'20".

My urge to breath comes at around 2', with contractions starting a 2'30". On a good day hold on to 6+ with a pb of 7'. So yes I would like to extend the urge to breath and start of contraction time a few minutes.

I love the idea of a contraction-dependant CO2 schedule! - I already came up with a feeling dependent O2 schedule. (50-50-70-90-90% effort level - 2'rest - without hearing the recorded times before the last static was done)

Interesting thread!

 

[efattah]

Whenever you do a CO2 table you should do jalandhara bandha (chin lock) to prevent a CO2 headache. After extreme CO2 tables I have had insane headaches (perhaps even dangerous ones), but the chin lock prevents it.

 

[pingshui]

Well, I am not a yoga specialist and just got started with some exercise 2 month ago. So how do I do the jalandhara bandha?

 

[silkyshark]

Well, I am not a yoga specialist and just got started with some exercise 2 month ago. So how do I do the jalandhara bandha?

Try this; Jalandhara Bandha | Chin Lock | Pranayama | Yoga Breathing - A2ZYoga.com I like the idea of this and will give this a go next CO2 table I do, as I get some real nasty headaches from hypercapnia.

 

[Simos]

Can't give you any more rep apparently Eric but thanks for an excellent tip!

 

[buddha]

During my CO2 tables and my "no-warmup" statics I don't even feel a headache or similar. Not having that symptom means I could push harder next time or it's a simple genetic issue?

 

[pingshui]

I would also love to have an answer to this question, because I have never had a CO2 headache either.

 

[Apneaddict]

I got headaches the first few times I did CO2 tables - but not since.

I don't miss them, but my breath holds have gotten longer.

Sounds like the best of both worlds to me!

 

[Erki]

I do not have headaches during CO2 tables, but I do have after swimming with rare breathing.

Here I have found that several people use kind of one breath apneas. I do not know how effective these are, but they need less time to built up high CO2 and in the case of empty lungs even low O2.