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FINS: OMER Stingray VS. Mares Razor, OTHER!?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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stonepony

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2011
3
0
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Hi!
I've been freediving almost my whole life, but not in a competition level.
In this summer I tested the CRESSI 2000HF and I just decided that I wanted to buy a good freediving fin i plastic.

I have been diving a little with sled and I think it's going great. I'm pretty new in the business but I want to have a fin I can go deep with!

I saw the OMER Stingray and the Mares Razor. They have both changeable blades which is one of my demands due to travelling.

Which one of thoose do you recommend or is there any other, better fin?

Thx! :t
 
You haven't mentioned how wide your feet are; a critical item in deciding on a good pair of fins

The Cressi and Beuchat footpockets are famous for being narrow.

Imersion and Picasso are very wide.

Omer and Dessault are more in the middle.
 
Stonepony,

Your shoe size should be a good indicator.

if you are a medium, both the Mares and Omer fins should be good choices. I haven't had a chance to see either yet, but hope to soon. Either would be good.

Unless you ahve very strong legs, I would suggest the Mares Razors over the Mares Razor Pros (very stiff). You can upgrade to fiberglass or carbon blades with either later, if you want to. I use carbon blades (Imersion E-carbons) because even soft plastic blades become very stiff when the water approaches freezing during the winter. Carbon and fiberglass doesn't have that problem
 
I have used both of those footpockets and have wide feet and I prefer the Mares over the Omer. It just seems like the tendons are built into the footpocket whereas the Omer's feel like they were just added on as an after thought. Another benefit for the Mares is they fit most blades where the Omer's have a specific shape for the Stingray.
 
Alright..
Is the OMER foot-pocket compatible with C4 carbon blades or what company creates blades for those? Except for OMER themself of course..

What I've heard the OMERs and Mares should be pretty soft. BUT what do you really want? How do you know that?

It has to be a compromise between the blade softness and available power in every foot kick, right?
A softer fin should "need" less oxygen then a stiff one, but the power shouldn't be the same as for a stiff one, you would have to kick more frequently..
..Where do I find the red-line here?

Thx guys! :t
 
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Stonepony,

If you want to go fast on a bicycle, do you push at 40 rpm, or do you keep thre cycle rate at 90-100 and minimize the muscle effort?

Personally I keep the gearing lower and put less effort into going faster.

The same with my fins. My E-carbons are very soft, but I have no trouble getting back to the surface from 30-40 m. They may not feel like it, but they provide plenty of power. Dave Mullins did some testing and now uses Cressi 3000LDs by choice, over his C-4s and other exotic blades.

As for the fitting of the blades, Omer Stingrays are designed to fit almost all of the blades, just like the Milleniums. In the US, Technosport imports C-4 and is the US distributor for Omer. They are happpy to provide C-4 blades in their Stingray footpockets. SpecialFins now also come with the option of either Milleniums or stingrays.
 
There are companies that will make their blades to accomodate the Stingray pocket but it would be a rare shot to walk into a shop and buy blades that would automatically work. Leaderfins for example will fit it by request you ask them to make them for the Stingray footpocket. I don't believe they are universal like the Milleniums.
 
The bicycle analogy is a good one. I always get confused between low gear and high gear, lets just say the gear that's easier to start peddling but tops out at a low speed vs. the gear that's hard to start but once you get going it's easier to maintain a higher speed.

When applying this analogy to fins, as a spearfisher I find that my movement is always stop and go, I rarely keep up a fast kick for longer than short bursts. This means that I make better use of a fin that's easier to start, and so I've come to prefer softer fins. Coming up from depth they give you the same propulsion as stiffer fins provided you use a correct kicking style. You may find the soft fins to be lacking when swimming against strong current but I use strategy to not have to swim against current. Swimming against strong current is not conducive to good diving even if you have stiff fins because you can't breath up properly. Another area where soft fins may lack is power on demand, such as when kicking hard to keep a fish out of structure. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. If I have to choose between being able to dive comfortably all day without pain in my knees and ankles, or having a small advantage in a rare situation with a big fish but having to cut my day short because of tired ankles, I'll take the soft fins.

You can't compare plastic to the quickness and lightness of carbon. If someone like Dave Mullins chooses to use plastic fins, I believe it has to be to make a statement, because it's hard for me to imagine he wouldn't have access to carbon fins selected specifically for his kicking style. But maybe it is possible if you're only buying off the shelf stuff.

I work closely with my customers to create a fin that is ideal for them. We don't always nail it on the first try, but for sure on the second try. This is usually due to guys wanting a stiffer fin than what they actually need.

Apart from that it can be a complicated choice because overall fin stiffness and flex is a combination of the footpocket and blade. Not all f/p fit everyone well so guys are drawn to the on that does, and insist on making it work. Then you have to select a blade to match the f/p. Take for example the two footpockets discussed in this thread, omer Stingray and Mares Razor.

The Stingray f/p have a soft and comfortable pocket, but the f/p tendons are some of the stiffest I've ever seen. This means even with a very soft blade you're not going to get any flex between where your toes end and the point where the f/p tendons end. I like moderate stiffness tendons in a f/p because they support the blade but also allow it to work. This is not the case with the Stingray f/p. BTW the Stingray pockets will accept a conventional blade back edge, but for it to go completely inside the slot a small recess needs to be shaped in the back edge. See this fin I put together; Stingray f/p with Pursuit MS (medium soft) C90 blade.

StingrayFootpocketsWithPursuitMSC9001.jpg


StingrayFootpocketsWithPursuitMSC9002.jpg


The Mares Razor by contrast have very soft tendons. They offer the blade almost no support. This means that to get a moderate stiffness fin you have to combine them with stiffer blade that has most of the action at the tip. It turned out quite well IMO. The Razor pockets are comfortable and the only question is durability and how the lack of support by the tendons will affect the blade in the long run. I think it will be fine.

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Mine work great, dog has not beat me yet.:) I use Pursuit C90 med in H.Dessault pockets.

Cheers, Don Paul
 

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Thanks DAn,

I knew some but not all of that. a lot of useful information

for home diving (Alaska) I'm using Imersion E-carbons. Very soft, but allow me to use 7 mm socks, and they don't get overly stiff even near freezing.

For my annual winter triop to Hawaii I'm taking my SpecialFins Blue Water Special medium blades in Millenium footpockets. My one modification after using the E-Carbons, is to take a sure-form to the ribs and thin them down a bunch. I now have progressive power, instead of easy kick or really hard kick (caused by the rigid ribs). I had heard that the Stingrays had soft ribs, but take your word for the opposite. Not many freediving stores in Anchorage, so I seldom get to touch anything new.

How would you compare the Dessaults you sell to Mares fps?
 
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I've only handled one new pair of stingray f/p, the one in the pics. I've noticed production vary wildly in omer millenium f/p in terms of tendon stiffness, some are moderate and some very stiff. I see the moderate stiffness millenium f/p as how they should be. Maybe the same variation applies to the stingray f/p. However the stingray f/p look like perhaps a different material that allows a different manufacturing process, they look to me to be potentially more consistent. BTW there have been reports of the tendons breaking on the stingray f/p. Not a break where the tendon is cut in half but a sort of weakness/lack of support from one side of the f/p that the diver can feel when kicking. Apart from the rumor I had two different guys show me their stingray f/p that had this problem. Interestingly both times the stingray f/p were paired with DiveR blades.

I wouldn't compare the H Dessault f/p to the Mares. The HD are like a work horse. They're basically the old Sporasub mold but made with softer rubber. The pocket is nice and soft/comfortable. The tendons are moderate stiffness. The sole is soft and those who look for this sort of thing will notice the back edge of the blade push through which indicates some loss in the power transfer. The HD f/p are comfortable but somewhat bulky and less efficient than ideal.
 
Persuit,

How would you rate the Pathos f/ps, since you carry them?
Wide vs narrow, soft vs hard, how easy to install blades in, etc

Howard
 
The Pathos f/p are in a class by themselves IMO. They weigh half of what other f/p weigh. To me installation is the easiest with Pathos f/p because it's a straight glue in. There are no rails to snap into the tendons and so there is no movement between the f/p and blade and no loss in the power transfer.

Pathos have been going through different productions. A few years back the f/p tendons were very soft, I feel this doesn't give the blade enough support. I guess other people were thinking the same and voicing their concerns so two years ago Pathos started making the f/p with very stiff tendons. This made it difficult to combine them with blades to achieve a moderate stiffness fin. For the last 2 years I'm using the Pathos f/p with the hard tendons and Pursuit MS (medium soft) blades, additionally I weakened the the tendons little by little until I achieved the flex and stiffness I wanted.

1-2.jpg


The Pathos f/p have a good stiff sole and you don't feel the back edge of the blade at all. They're rather flat on top and put some pressure on the instep. This combined with a relatively stiff pocket makes them uncomfortable for people with a high arch. It also feels like the pressure from the stroke is a little further down toward the toes than with other f/p. Up to now the stiffness of the pocket made the Pathos suitable for those who it fits. I'm not sure if you get my meaning, other f/p like the HD will stretch somewhat to accommodate irregularities in the foot, the Pathos will not. So if you're in luck and a particular size fits well you can use them.

I've been suggesting Pathos for the last two years to manufacture the f/p somewhere in between the old (soft) and new (hard) stiffness. Very recently they responded by producing a the third version which is exactly what was needed. The latest f/p has softer rubber at the ankles and toes, and the tendons are a little softer too. The new f/p can be combined with a medium blade and be just a tad too stiff for what an overall medium fin should be IMO. Because of the softness of the pocket from this latest production I'm now able to use Pathos one size down; a 42-44, whereas I was using 44-46. I wear size 11 US shoes. I also had a customer that wanted to use Pathos but the largest size 46-48 was too tight for him. I had the new f/p come in and he tried them again. This time the 46-48 was a perfect fit and he's very pleased with them.

The bottom line is that once you see how small, light, and efficient is possible for a f/p to be as in the case of the Pathos, it's very hard to go back to using anything else.
 
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I'm using a foot pocket from Dan, that is the newer version 44/46 H.Dsssault 100% latex workhorse.
The pockets are matched to Pursuit Carbon med stiffness blades secured with quality black zip ties instead
of machine screws or tapping screws. This makes over torque of the metal fasteners and blade interface a non issue that I like.

I am 5' 11'' at 190lbs and have been swimming against strong currents in open seas for over thirty years.
When I dive offshore from a anchored boat hooked behind a sea mount with strong current, ( no current...
no fish) ... I need to be able to swim up hill all day and dive to depth up to xxxx feet.
wink1.gif


To be Cont....
 
For the last 25 years I have trained during the winter months using a 10'' 5/8 section of Mori Mean Green
rubber which is connected to a mesh belt I wear, at the other end is a loop of para cord I shackle
to the swim ladder. This way I can swim against the resistance of the band. It is a good drill for building the legs to swim up current for hours if necessary. Of course there is a limit in heavy current, but I have had my anchor pull in big wind while alone and have to swim my ass off to try to catch the boat.


I have been using very stiff Imersion purple blade fins (not blue) and a ten year old pair of Picasso Carbon blades and pocket which I broke during a ''swim'' with a angry bull sea lion. I liked the Picasso's but would only use them in blue water because the bad oil can thump when I kicked them too hard.
White Sea Bass don't like this sound.
eek.gif


I am very happy to report Dan's Pursuit Carbon C90 med stiffness in H.Dessault foot pockets are very quiet no matter how hard or soft I kicked them.
I was able to kick them for 4 hr straight with out cramping or running out of steam. My old fins felt like plywood by comparison. The fins just plain kick major ASS without any shortcomings at this point.
Next pool session I'll be trying them with fin keepers but the foot pocket feels great. I was going to go with the Pathos but I have a bone deformity from a old foot injury and found the H. Dessualt had more give in the toe socket area, which made it more comfortable.
I will keep you guys posted on performance off shore this season. Great product Dan.
thumbsup2.gif

All the best, Don Paul __________________
 
I bought a pair of the Pathos and I have wide feet so I say they are fairly wide, not the softest pocket out there but comfortable for my foot and you have to glue the blades in. They are incredibly light and I love them. Definitely worth trying, in the past I have used Picasso, Mares, and Imersion pockets.
 
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