FRC thoughts/questions

[gman]

Several years ago I was researching FRC. I've been out of the game since then and was just reminded of FRC in another thread. That got my research juices flowing. I read a bunch of old threads (many of the same ones I read years ago) and found some familiar information. Many of my old questions came back to mind.

Here is my overall impression: FRC is awesome. It allows nearly equal bottom time, greatly improves margins of safety, allows for increased surface turnaround, and is totally counter-intuitive...

So, why isn't everyone doing it? Is it most suited for depth apnea? Do spear fishermen kick and work too much for FRC to be effective? Is it the equalization that is so difficult as you don't have a huge supply of reserve air? Or is it the fact that you don't have a huge amount of air available for mask equalization?

At first glance it would seem to me that it is a perfect fit for shallow water (less than say 30M) diving and hunting as the air compression is not that tremendous. At these shallow depths you should be able to have enough air in your mouth to take care of mask and ear equalization.

I am going to commit myself to learning FRC and improving my Frenzel. I had an article marked and printed that Eric wrote on the Frenzel. I'll have to find that again.

Is there any downside for a recreational diver who will probably not go deeper than 30M who wants to take photographs, spearfish, and in general just go sight seeing???

Thanks in advance.

 

[JennyWren]

The Frenzel technique document you mentioned is here:

http://www.liquivision.ca/frenzel.doc

It's an extremely in depth and detailed explanation of the process. I'm lucky in that I didn't have too much trouble figuring out Frenzel. I have heard of some people who find the document a bit daunting as it is so detailed, however I think it would be great for someone who hasn't been able to do Frenzel by following simpler instructions. Eric's doc goes through all the steps, and has exercises for learning how to do all the motions required.

 

[gman]

That's the one.

THANK YOU!!!!!

 

[gman]

Another question. Do any people have good luck FRC'ing in cold water where thick suits (my scuba suit that I use here in California is 7mm) and "lots" of weight are required? I seem to remember that colder water is better for MDR, but there are other factors to consider. My main interest is along the lines of photography, hunting, spearing, sight seeing in general. Not specifically going up and down the water column.

 

[laminar]

I've been using it exclusively for about 4 years, now, in Vancouver, BC, all year round. Love it! Bottom times exceed previous inhale/packing bottom times and it is so much more enjoyable.

Check out some of the threads that have been running.

Any specific questions?

 

[gman]

Thank you Laminar. I have been reading a number of running threads. Unfortunately I only really started really paying attention and reading the old ones after I started this one...
The fact that you can dive with a thick suit in cold water makes sense now that I have had time to read and think on it. "All" you have to do is figure out what weight makes you as bouyant as your suitless body would be in warm water right? The thicker suit and extra weight, I would imagine, makes relaxing much more challenging.
I am really excited to make this work. The major downside is that I am somewhat confined to pool and dry land training quite a bit of the time. Getting to the deep water takes considerable coordination and I cannot do it even once a week.
Do you use it for all your diving? For example; hunting, photos, and etc or mostly for line diving? Do hunting and more active types of diving require more oxygen than is available in FRC dives? I am confident that at some point it will all become crystal clear to me.

If you or the mods want to move this thread and incorporate it into an existing one my feelings won't be hurt. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

EDIT: Actually I guess I do have a specific question that I have not found answered in any other thread and this is likely why I started a new one.

FRC seems to me to be the best of all possible techniques. I don't see any downside once it is learned. Sure it takes a while but it sure seems worth it. So why isn't EVERYONE doing it?

 

[laminar]

Why isn't everyone using it?

1. Learning to equalize without struggle can take a long time or prove difficult for some.

2. Some may not have the patience for relearning their breathing reflex, sense of well-being, how to really be energy efficient, especially in the descent - in a sense, learning how to dive all over again.

3. Psychological resistance to going down without full lungs.

4. Initial decrease in bottom time and sense of running out of air.

5. Trying it with a inhale/more energy intensive style and finding it not good or fun and then abandoning it.

6. Working style dives often make less practical, especially in conditions that make it harder to rest on the surface.

I've used FRC for the following:
- uw photography and video
- safety spotting to 25m 2 min+ dives
- line dives to 50m
- recreational diving in no suit, 3mm, 5mm, 6.5/5mm in winter
- dynamic fins and no fins pool training

I have no used FRC for spearing (don't really spear at all), but for any kind of food gathering it works fine (crabs).

I think the main reason why many haven't stuck with it is that it requires a fairly long period of time to learn to do it safely and effectively and a process-oriented approach, rather than a goal oriented approach.

I still rarely dive on a full inhale, but in training for Nationals, I have used 70-80% breaths on a regular basis. Not quite the same elegance, but still being able to regulate your buoyancy so easily is a big plus and also wearing less weight.

Pete

 

[JennyWren]

I'm going to have to give this a try sometime. For me it's definitely going to be mostly a psychological struggle. I should practice exhale statics at home first, to get used to that, I suppose.

 

[cdavis]

Jenny, you will find frc much, much easier than exhale statics. FRC is the style for the diver who is terminally lazy and doesn't like to strain.

gman, I can heartily recommend frc, works great! It is also possible to use the pool to build your tolerance for diving with less than a full lung, train your dive reflex, equalization, etc. That's what I had to do (and still do). You have probably seen the thread, "exhale diving for the average diver". If not, read it all. I've tried a lot of things in the pool and would be glad to share ideas.

For me, it works fabulous when the diving is relaxed, longer bottom times, faster to full recovery, just no down side that I can find. When doing energetic dives,, working hard while down, current, too short surface intervals, etc, it doesn't seem to work as well, especially if you can't fully relax on the surface. I'm trying to develop a conscious style of varying my inhale and breathup with each dive, depending on the conditions. Its going to take a lot of practice.

For photography or sightseeing, I'd say it was near perfect. For many kinds of spearfishing (including mine) it works well. Still, you would have to experiment with your style to see if it fits. Most of my spearing is one fish, once in a while. If you were shooting a whole bunch of fish in a hurry, it probably would not work as well.

One caveat. This should be approached as something that will take a while to get used to, so take it slow. I suspect it is not real safe to plunge right in(you need to have a well developed dive reflex) and I know FOR SURE you can hurt yourself (squeeze) if you go for depth too fast.

Connor

 

[gman]

What awesome feedback everyone. Connor I did finally find the "exhale" thread. It was by accident. I was plunging into some other old threads and Trux linked the "uber thread" in that one. So I am really excited to have found what seems to be the mother of all FRC threads.

Here's a link to it in case any one else hasn't read it:
http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver.html

SO thank you to Trux for linking this in that other thread, and thank you to all the super experienced divers for your patience in dealing with yet another FRC thread.

I may actually have to join the local gym that has a 50m lap pool. The downside is that they don't have a deep end. Something about insurance here in Kaliforniastan and deep pools.

Jenny keep us up to date on your progress. You have way more experience than I do so it will be interesting to hear how you adapt compared to my inexperienced self...

Anyway, thank you again. I am really looking foreword to trying this and to reading more and more about it.

I know I will have a bunch more questions, I hope I don't exhaust all yall's patience.

 

[cdavis]

Thanks for the compliments, but don't sell yourself short.

How deep is the deepest portion of their lap pool?

Connor

 

[gman]

Thanks for the complements, but don't sell yourself short.

How deep is the deepest portion of their lap pool?

Connor

The pool is 50M long and 3.5 feet on one end to 7 feet deep on the other. There are a lot of triathletes in the area who like to swim lap upon lap. I think the club built the pool catering to the lap swimmers.

One question: If you are doing laps and turn under water, what technique do you use? I can "flip turn" above water, but how do you do it staying under water?

 

[efattah]

I just want to warn anyone trying FRC diving that the urge to breathe does not appear the same was as for inhale dives. You need to generally breathe less before an FRC dive. If you breathe like you do for a packing or inhale dive, you could have a blackout before the urge to breathe hits you.

During FRC dives, one must never wait for the urge to breathe in order to ascend. It is not a reliable indicator. However, that is a blessing and a curse. It allows the dives to be far more enjoyable, but you must be much more careful and not use the urge to breathe as any type of indicator.

 

[gman]

I would not have thought that. When just learning, when do you "come up"? If you do not use the urge to breath as a discomfort indicator, how do you know when you can safely increase your goal? In my case how will I know when to increase my distance or my static goal in the pool?

This is part of the process that I am going to really be able to sink my teeth into.

 

[ktreloar]

howdy from down under ,
just got a couple of questions for the frc gurus? when you guys train in the pool what lung volume (ie 1/2 lung capacity) would you to train with. Currently without extra weighting and no suit, for me to sink in the pool im way below frc ( not far off full exhale...:blackeye ) i believe this is having a bit of effect on my times and distances not to mention make the dives pretty rough.. any advice would be greatly appreciated because there is to many divers around using this style...

cheers

ktreloar

 

[cdavis]

Eric, What do you use as a signal to come up?

For sure, FRC plus minimal breathup yields a lessor urge to breath, much more comfortable, but, at least for me, the urge is still shows up and I use it as a marker of when to come up. However, I don't push into discomfort anywhere near as far as I would diving full lung. I've pushed the envelope pretty far in the pool, way beyond what I would do in real diving, and not found the B0 place yet, not withstanding very strong urge to breathe and even incorporating some mild purging into my breathup.

Is this something that is individual, related to depth, degree of dive reflex, something else? My c02 tolerance has always been poor, so maybe I'm an exception. Whatever, the advise to take it slow and completely recalibrate the way you dive is really important for FRC. Its easy to imagine a diver with high c02 tolerance just blowing right by the minimal urge to breath that you get with FRC without even noticing it until trouble arrived.

Connor

 

[efattah]

As far as a signal to come up, the only thing I use is an intuitive combination of elapsed dive time, current depth, exertion during the dive, previous surface interval and relaxation during the breathe up, plus start-up dives.

By start-up dives, I mean that I start every session with progressively longer, but shallow dives, testing my physiology and seeing how I feel upon surfacing (urge to breathe at the end of the dive combined with hypoxia sensations).

While I do sometimes get an urge to breathe in the last few meters of the ascent, I will never get an urge to breathe early enough in the dive to give me enough time to get up. For example, while scooting around at 30m, if I wait for the urge to breathe to come, and then go up, I will have a huge risk of a blackout.

After the start-up series, supposing that I pass and feel like 'usual', then I insist on 4 minutes of total relaxation prior to the dive, with no movement or swimming, and good feelings during my breathing. I then start the dive, and perform minimal exertion. Upon reaching the bottom, I start the ascent at an elapsed time that I know I can manage, and that elapsed time also depends on the depth.

All things considered, the end result is that I feel this style is quite advanced and requires a good connection with your internal sensations and intuition, as well as some thought and logic and procedures. I would not recommend it to beginners. For one thing you need to really understand how to sense the symptoms of hypoxia prior to FRC diving. In order to sense hypoxia, most people need to have pushed to a near samba many times under very controlled conditions (i.e. freediving course or with good buddies).

 

[cdavis]

ktreloar, I think most folks are a positive at 1/2 lung. You need some weight unless the pool is very deep or you are exhaling more than you would normally do while diving.

gman, as you can see, frc is not something to just jump right into. I'd suggest using the deep end of your pool and, with a spotter, explore the outer limits of time and degree of exhale, experiment with breathup, find out just exactly how frc feels different, etc. In a controlled environment, it is easier to feel things you might not notice in the ocean. Its also much easier to see progress in your skills. You might not ever need that spotter, but having one will give you the confidence to find out what works. And then again. . . you just might need that spotter after all.

Connor

 

[cdavis]

Thanks Eric,

Very interesting how different reactions to FRC can be. I wonder if mine will ever approach yours.

Connor

 

[gman]

Thanks Connor. I was coming to that same conclusion. WHich, of course, puts another wrinkle in my training plans as I need to have someone close by with me (training partner) now... I had hoped to just go REALLY easily and learn and use what I know based on my lung full diving. But it is evident that the technique may be too different. AH well, just part of the process I guess.