frenzel / mouthfill questions

[demasoni]

I'm currently stuck at around 38 meters constant weight due to my inability to equalize further.

I pretty sure I can do Frenzel consistently on land - I've been studying the "Fattah document" and I can exhale all my air and still equalize even bent over with my head between my legs. My abs also don't move or tighten as if I'm performing Valsalva. I'm just not sure if I'm doing Frenzel while diving inverted.

As a test, when I do a exhale/negative warm up dive - I notice I can't equalize when I get to the point where my throat tickles - 15 feet. Should I be able to if I'm properly doing Frenzel? If so, do I need to fill my mouth and close my epiglottis before I descend or should I just be able to equalize?

On the actual dive, should I be able to go past my failure depth using Frenzel by trying to push air up with my diaphragm? On my last dive I couldn't bring up ANY air at 38 meters.

Should I do a mouthfill at some point before instead? If so, if I open my epiglottis or swallow accidentally past my failure depth and my air goes back to my lungs, is my dive over as I won't be able to get the air back into mouth?

Thanks for bearing with me on this, I'm still waiting for the moment of Frenzel enlightment and take my diving to the next level.

 

[Mullins]

I was working on the mouthfill quite a bit last season, so I'll add some thoughts although there are more experienced guys who will probably chime in too.

Frenzel isn't going to do you much good unless there is enough air in your mouth to equalise with. When you're still above your residual volume (which in your case is reached at approx the failure depth you're experiencing) you can just bring air up for each equalisation, no real need to control your throat (glottis?).

But if you're going below RV, as you do on an exhale very quickly, you'll need to shift air to your mouth while you still have sufficient airspace. In the case of exhale diving, that means doing a mouthfill very early in the dive, or even at the surface (good practice to see how far down you can get on a mouthfill). For inhale diving, if 38m is currently your consistent failure point then maybe do a mouthfill at 20m or so, closing off the throat from that point onwards and relying solely on the stored air. It should be the greatest- depth at which you can fully fill your mouth, anyway. It takes quite a bit of conscious control not to open your throat from this point on, though it is fairly easy to learn the mechanics of it.

Yup, opening your throat and letting air back into your lungs will mean the end of your dive (unless you're still shallow enough to do another mouthfill).

To clarify, though you probably know this already from Eric's document; Frenzel can be done completely independently of the diaphragm. If you're using your diaphragm to provide pressure to equalise with, you're doing Valsalva.

 

[Bill]

The mouthfull on the surface and exhale will work OK but I had more luck with a better simulation. Try pulling down the rope with air just until your fins are under. Now fill your mouth and exhale for 10 seconds (either against pursed lips or through your nose/mask). This will simulate the state that you will be in if you stop and fill your mouth at 30 meters. When you can control the air and equalize to 10 meters, very slowly, you'll be able to glide from thirty to over 50.
If something doesn't work right, just return quickly to the surface, rest 4-5 minutes while your buddy does one and try again. I went through all this a few years back but after eight months out of the water, I had to learn again a few weeks ago. Forunately, it's easier to teach an old dog to remember something from the past than learn something new.
Aloha
Bill

 

[demasoni]

Thanks for the suggestions and helpful info guys. Any tips on keeping the epiglottis closed? Eric F.'s document saying that inhaling against the closed throat will help, just wondering if you may have additional suggestions based on your experience. Also, does it help equalization once you do the mouthfill to keep your nose continually pinched or bring you arm back and forth / in and out of the most hydrodynamic position?

Bill, when you say "stop at 30 meters to fill your mouth," do you actually mean stopping downward momentum and going horizontal for a while to fill or filling while falling? Is one better than the other?

I'm going diving tom so I will practice both the mouthfill by setting my alarm to around 20-25 meters to start and simulate the dive by doing the negative pull-down exhale excercise.

 

[jome]

Sounds to me like you already have a pretty good grasp at equalizing. Learning the mouthfill is worth it. It does take it's time, but the best advice I can give to you is be persistent and keep at it.

It's very hard to describe the feelings and movements of how to keep the epiglottis closed etc, and even harder to understand by reading. There are good tips and tricks, but in the end, you just have to do a lot of shallow dives simulating the "out of air to equalize" and try to feel and listen where does the air go on why. It is very frustrating because failures are abundant, but then one day you just get it.

That said, personally I don't believe you should need the mouthfill to go past 38m. You obviously have all the other pieces in place, except getting that air out to equalize. I would suggest you put the bottom plate at 37m and dive to it repeatedly. Set the rope so, that you cannot go deeper, even if you could and don't worry about going past 38. Then, stop at the bottom plate for a second and equalize. If you can't, then try to feel around why not. When you consistently can, then it should be no problem getting past 38...Of course, you need to ask your self, what is ultimately your goal. How deep would you like to go and why? If you want to do competitive/record level/empty lung dives, the the mouthfill is a very good thing to learn. If you just want to dive a little deeper, then you would probably get there faster concentrating on other things...

I used to have trouble equalizing with a normal frenzel below 35m, but this summer I did repeated dives to 50+ without mouthfills or packing. There's not really one trick or barrier that allowed this other than there are both psychological and physiologial barriers and both can be overcome intuitively, if you just allow your self some time and don't rush to the depths...It can be frustrating if you know you could hypoxia wise do twice the depth, but equalization is a strange beast to tame and it takes some patience

This especially since you seem to have mastered the Frenzel technique.

 

[Bill]

"stop at 30 meters to fill your mouth,"
If you are neutral at 12-13 meters, you can stop kicking at 20-25 and get in a clear, mouthfull and clear sequence by 30 or so. It will become a very smooth transition but there is nothing wrong with breaking the steps down while learning. You want to learn it head down and slowing or even stopping may help. It may also help to make a habit of trying to get one last clear as you hit your target. That will give you a little confidence for when you move the target to the next step down.
Aloha
Bill

 

[perow1]

I have got a thought concerning mouthfill. I often hear that if you do a moutfill you will decrease the chance for a squeze. This is probably true, and I think I know why. I was just thinking that if to much emphasis is put on the mouthfill as a beginner this might help you to reach big depths. If you are prone to squeeze the mouthfil might take you to depths that you are not prepared to handle. Even if mouthfill might protect you from squeeze I suspect it can have the mentioned effects too. Personally I think chest and diaprhagm flexibility are two important things to practice along with the moutfill. And ofcourse, relaxation!

 

[jome]

Definately agree.

Although ultimately I believe the mouth fill is "the thing to learn", it is also a dangerous technique if not used responsibly and I don't recommend it be the first thing to learn.

But I also believe that a pure valsalva is even more dangerous, regardless of the depth...

But Frenzel or better yet BTV should be a part of every freedivers (and scuba) trick bag

 

[demasoni]

Just got back from diving and had to take a 2 hour nap before I could sit and write this I was so tired :head

Anyways, I did my warm-ups and tried what Bill had explained and I could equalize down to 10 meters after expelling air just under the surface then mouthfilling which gave me hope I could do it deeper.

I did a dive to 33 meters or so to really take my time and feel what's going on. I set my dive alarm to 25 meters to prompt me to fill. The alarm went off and I proceeded to fill then I consciously closed the epiglottis. I told myself to relax and when I did, I also relaxed my throat and the air went back to my lungs. :hmm

When I hit bottom, I took some seconds and tried equalizing and felt air coming up through my throat and it took longer to equalize - I was attempting Valsalva at this point.

So, the trick for me seems to be how to relax and enjoy the glide phase whilst keeping the epiglottis shut after the fill...I don't think I'm alone on this one...

Thanks for all the tips and concern, I will keep working at it

 

[jome]

That is certainly the hardest part of the mouthfill. And also the most dangerous. If you loose the air when you're already past your eq-limit and try to continue the dive, you will almost certainly get problems (ear/lung squeeze). So it is vitally important to understand that when using the mouthfill, if you mess it up, the dive is over, you turn immediately.

But once you get it right, you don't have to worry about that

 

[demasoni]

Thanks for the advice and info guys. I went diving yesterday and set a new PB of 56m. I filled my cheeks at 25 meters and continued to equalize.

HOWEVER, I believe I got lung squeeze. I surfaced clean, but started coughing and felt short of breath. I was making a wheezing sound when I breathed - like I used to when I had an asthma attack as a kid. I also felt some gurgling / fluid in the lower part of my lungs. After "clearing my throat" for about 10 min, the coughing and gurgling stopped, but my lungs felt "tender" during breathing for the rest of the day. I spit into my hand several times, but I didn't see any blood.

I going to take some time off to recover and I believe the cause for this was:

1. I made a 10 meter jump from 46m to 56m.
2. I had a slight contraction on the way down.
3. My diaphragm and chest weren't as flexible as they could have been.

I wonder, what was the gurgling in my lungs? I felt like some type of fluid was present. How is this different from thoracic filling as part of the dive reflex?

I hope this serves as a example of what NOT to do to others who may be around my level of experience. Next time I go dive, I going to subtract some meters and proceed slower. Anyone have some suggestions as to what else I can do to better prepare myself? Thanks in advance.

 

[laminar]

Hi Demasoni,

Sorry to hear you got squeezed. Lung squeeze is my pet issue on deeperblue. Check out my article if you haven't already and search the forums, there's at least a couple of threads that have recommendations, including this one:

http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=60742&highlight=lung+squeeze+frc

Scroll down the first page and I have a list of points for avoiding squeeze.

Fluid in your lungs: most probably blood from trachea and/or alveoli. But that's a hotly debated topic.

Thoracic filling, I believe, only happens as a protective mechanism during very deep dives for a long duration. I don't believe that dives under 60-70m invoke thoracic filling. Perhaps it can happen on FRC dives below 35m.

No way to prove that though.

Pete

 

[demasoni]

Thanks for the great thread Pete, looks like it has been discussed quite thoroughly.

 

[MaBe]

demasoni,

I did spend some time on learning the mouthfill and I am quite confident that I can cope with it. However, during the training I was often quite closed to getting squeezed. That's why I don't really like and trust this technique ...
(My max depth is currently -45m... without using the mouthfill.)

Few years ago I attended the Pelizzari course and I am pretty sure he is not using Frenzel/fattah. Other guys like Nery and Leferme apparently pretend also not to use Frenzel/fattah ( For more details, check this article http://www.freedivecentral.com/a-the-last-equalisation-8610.html). And all these champions are well below -100m...

For me, freediving is really "FREE" diving. So, I don't want to set any depth alarms, neither to concentrate on keeping the epilgotis closed and so on. Presently, I am working on BTV, rib cage flexibilty and relaxation. This will take some time but i am confident that it will bring me down to -60m.

So my suggestion is: forget about mouthfill, take your time with equalization(try to learn BTV, this is the real freedom in freediving) and increase your depth step by step. An increase of -10m is great but is not worth the squeeze...

MaBe

 

[jome]

The thing with the mouthfill, as with any equalizing technique is, you have to practice it enough to get it second nature...But once you get there, you don't have to concentrate or think about it. And it in fact let's you relax even better than other techniques just because of that...After the last fill, you simply keep your tubes open and fall...No worrying about where to get the air for the last equalisation etc. I think the "holy grail" of air equalization techniques would be a mouthfill combined with BTV, which I guess is what a lot of deep divers do.

But it takes some getting used to...And true, there is the greatest danger of the technique: it allows you to go to depths you may not otherwise be yet adapted for.

To me, the thing that caught my eye was that you said you had a single contraction on the way down? It sounds very much like the "pressure contractions" I've observed before. Ie if you only had one, it could not have been a hypoxic or hypercapnic contraction. I sometimes get this kind of breathing movement which is believe is caused by the building pressure in the epiglottis/throat area, and it is usually much more violent than a normal contraction (which I can take even at depth endlessly without having squeeze trouble). To me, that kind of contraction is a sign to turn, because it means I have at least partially failed on the mouthfill...

At least in most squeeze cases I've talked to, a similar thing has been observed...Maybe it's nothing or just my imagination...But if you go diving with the mouthfill again, be wary of that feeling. It usually happens a little bit after the last fill, around the depth you would normally fail to equalize at.

I get the same feeling when doing empty lung statics with heavy negative packing. And I find it is also a good way to learn to control that feeling and keep calm and relaxed. Diving is even better, but less safe, for obvious reasons...

 

[demasoni]

"To me, the thing that caught my eye was that you said you had a single contraction on the way down? It sounds very much like the "pressure contractions" I've observed before. Ie if you only had one, it could not have been a hypoxic or hypercapnic contraction. I sometimes get this kind of breathing movement which is believe is caused by the building pressure in the epiglottis/throat area, and it is usually much more violent than a normal contraction (which I can take even at depth endlessly without having squeeze trouble). To me, that kind of contraction is a sign to turn, because it means I have at least partially failed on the mouthfill..."

Jome,

Just returned from the ocean for the first time since the squeeze and proceeded conservatively. After filling at 25m, I got a slight "throat contraction" at 43m and turned as I didn't want to push anything, the same kind of contraction I experienced during the squeeze dive. I know this isn't a hypoxic contraction, so how does it mean that I may have partially failed on the mouthfill? Anyone else ever experience these types of contractions?

What can you take endlessly at depth, regular or throat-type contractions without squeeze?

 

[jome]

Regular, I find the throat type to be the problem.

Usually if that happens to me, air has escaped from my mouth partially, and I cannot continue far anyway. But it might be different for you.

You might try to tuck your chin to your chest, ie don't keep looking down, but looking at the rope, or even your feet as you drop. Sometimes that makes it easier to relax when things get "tight". But my recommendation is, that before you can learn to relax when this "throat contraction" comes, don't push far beyond that point...

At least for me, it doesn't take that long (for example when starting a new season, I sometimes get this, but after a day or two I get over it). But experiment with the feelings you get at that point and try to learn to relax when you feel the pressure building on your throat

 

[OceanMan]

I had this type of single contraction once.
It was discussed here
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?t=66867&page=3
On the same dive, I had lung squeeze.

Sometimes I think that this single contraction may be a reflexe contraction because there is liquid/blood somewhere it is not supposed to be (ie bleeding has already started).

 

[demasoni]

Thanks for the link to the thread Ocean Man, there was a post by Naiad that I think sums up what I felt:

"That happens to me with negative statics. It must be the negative pressure, because it happens almost immediately, before it could be anything to do with CO2 or O2. It is a 'pulling' contraction instead of a 'pushing' one. Normal CO2 or O2 contractions are trying to force air out, but this kind is trying to breathe in. It is much worse.

I get the same contractions when I get into cold water, or if I dive without a mask.

It does get easier with training, and it doesn't happen as much now as it used to. I don't do many negative statics anyway, I must give it another try.

Lucia"


Its definitely a sucking in type contraction, but the one at 43m was minor and concentrated around the throat area. I hope this can be alleviated by focusing on relaxation.

 

[xristos]

I have one question on the mouthfill technique. I have been successful at the balloon exercise. Is there chance I succeed but epiglottis isn't shut? If it was open it would get into my lungs only If the pressure in them is less than that of the outside air. So if I exhale good and then try the balloon exercise and succeed I could be pretty sure glottis Is closed?!
Also in the sea I think I keep the epiglottis closed but I wonder, could I be doing swallowing motion but not swallowing the air in my mouth? On land I think that's the case.
Edit: The balloon exercise on forced exhale isn't working for me if I inflate balloon then exhale then put it in my mouth. BUt, if I inflate put in mouth then exhale as the air already has started escaping through my nose I can end up with an empty balloon and negative pressure in my lungs.