Frenzel problem leading to nowhere

[Johnccf]

I have been trying to figure out Frenzel for the past three month... And finally decided to seek some help with this post, would really appreciate any advise

A little background... I am a recreational adv padi diver
trying to get into free diving due to a spine surgery.
Took a course with instructor on freediving, but isn't able to do Frenzel, not even once in the past 3 month on and off practicing.

I thought about doing diving with just valsalva, but that isn't working either... I can go down to 10m with ease while heads-up using valsalva. But if i turn heads-down, i can hardly pass 3 m.... My coach tell me to push with my stomach instead of my lung, but still, i can only do it heads up not heads down... Could i be doing something wrong?

So I am back practicing frenzel.

I turn to the Eric Fattah's pdf file. I get stuck in step 5, which refers to Appendix A on packing your lung. I don't know how to push the air from my cheek to my lung. I can try sucking the air in my cheek to my lung, but that's not pushing using my cheek. And, i kind of cannot tell if the air is going into my lung or my stomach... similarly, i don't know how to use the tongue as a piston...

So i tried stepping ahead to step 6. I think i am able to do this, but i am not 100% sure. So to test myself, making sure i have the the soft palette neutral and the epiglottis closed, i went under water. Pinched my nose, filled my mouth and cheek and nose with air, closed the epiglottis and soft palette neutral, then i let go my hand. Then i can feel the air in my cheek disappearing and bubbles coming out of my nose. With this result, can i conclude that the epiglottis is closed and soft palette neutral?

Is so, i guess the problem lies on using the tongue as a piston? I tried the t, the k, and the h position, nothing works. I don't feel anything in my ear...

And i also wonder... Isn't air compressible? Say if i have very tight eustachian tube, will the tiny amount of air in the mouth be sufficient to neutralize the pressure?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Really want to put an end to all the miserable practices...

 

[Jo_duiker]

Well, I am an amateur freediver, having trouble even passing 50 m in dynamic with fins, but I do have the weird "quality" of having done Frenzel all my life without it even knowing. I don't know if it will make sense what I'll say, but let me try and help you. Forget the Fattah pdf for a while. Try the following:

Breathe in and hold that breath
Pinch your nose
Now comes the "hard" part:
- close your epiglottis: how to do this: imagine you are going to lift a heavy weight off the floor or something and brace yourself: your epiglottis should close...
- keep your mouth closed and try to pronounce the letter "K" or the word "king"

Doing this, concentrate on NOT tensing up your lungs and/or stomach and also concentrate on bringing the air to your nose in a way that is like sniffing but (this is crucial!) the air is coming from your mouth and not from your lungs if that makes sense...

You are (very probably) doing Frenzel right if all of the following apply:
- you can do it with your mouth open
- your adam's apple moves up and down when you do it
- your lungs and stomach are completely relaxed
- you can equalize a lot in a short time (like 4-5 times in 2-3 seconds!)

Here's a great video which helped a lot of people already!

 

[jpp]

Look on you tube for James Floods video on Frenzel technique. It helped me.


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[Davos]

The one thing that held me back from being able to Frenzel was overthinking it- a lot of tutorials over-exaggerate would you should be doing with your tongue and throat, you might be expecting something drastic, but it's quite a subtle movement. Check out Adam Stern's tutorial on YouTube, it's probably the best one I've seen and might help you find any flaws you're having in your technique.

 

[Troupe Brewer]

The one thing that held me back from being able to Frenzel was overthinking it- a lot of tutorials over-exaggerate would you should be doing with your tongue and throat, you might be expecting something drastic, but it's quite a subtle movement. Check out Adam Stern's tutorial on YouTube, it's probably the best one I've seen and might help you find any flaws you're having in your technique.

This is exactly what happened to me. I literally learned to frenzel this AM after trying all day yesterday and last night. Read and read and read, watched 10 different tutorial vids, breaking down each small step. Really over-thought it. Did it by accident, figured out what I did, and it was like a switch flipped. Adam Stern's video was definitely my favorite, but a combo of watching Adam stern and reading Fattah's famous doc this morning got me over the hump.

 

[Troupe Brewer]

This is exactly what happened to me. I literally learned to frenzel this AM after trying all day yesterday and last night. Read and read and read, watched 10 different tutorial vids, breaking down each small step. Really over-thought it. Did it by accident, figured out what I did, and it was like a switch flipped. Adam Stern's video was definitely my favorite, but a combo of watching Adam stern and reading Fattah's famous doc this morning got me over the hump.

Link to the Stern video:

 

[Davos]

It's so great when it suddenly clicks!
This all makes me consider something. In weightlifting/personal training/coaching there are things called 'cues'. A cue is a command designed to help some perform an exercise "push your hips forward" that sort of thing.
They are broken down into internal cues - which focus on your body or muscles ie 'activate your glutes' or 'shoulders back' and external cues which focus on relatable movements or commands like 'push the bar away from you' or 'squeeze your butt'.

People, especially beginners, respond far better to external cues as it's easier to relate them back to a movement they have performed outside of the gym. Everyone can squeeze their butt, but 'activating glutes' doesn't quite parse with everyone. But they mean roughly the same thing. External cues have also shown to bring out better results in all athletes - like a bigger 1 rep max.

Which brings me back to Adam's video. He actually uses a lot of external cues. These muscles are very foreign to average people. It takes a long time to be able to really feel where your tongue is or what your epiglottis is doing. However these external cues make it far, far easier.

I hope one day to be an instructor and I think that knowing this will really help teach people.




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