Frenzel Problems

[penguinator]

Ok so I think I have the two muscles going ok (soft palate and epig), but I am not too sure about the soft palate. If I can breath out my nose and my mouth at the same time, does that means its in the neutral position? Also, sometimes im not too sure if its my soft palate im controlling or my epigl.

The biggest problem I am having however, is controlling both at the same time. Are there any exercises or tricks I can use to practice complete control?

 

[trux]

Re: Frenzal Problems

There is a very easy and quick way for determining whether you use Valsalva or Frenzel technique - simply try compensating with pinched nose but open mouth. If you have no problem equalizing, the epiglottis and soft palate are closed and you are indeed using Frenzel. If you are not able to equalize, because the air blows out of your mouth, then you are using Valsalva.

PS: it is surprising how many regular DB members are unable to spell the name properly. The techniques is not called Frenzal, nor Fresnel or Freznel (like used in the thread http://forums.deeperblue.net/equalisation/71250-head-down-fresnel-challenges.html), but simply and clearly Frenzel. Although it is not too important for the ability to compensate, spelling it incorrectly does not really show you've read about the technique carefully.

The Frenzel Maneuver, is named after Herman Frenzel who was a Luftwaffe commander and taught this technique to dive bomber pilots during WW2. The original German spelling is FREHN-TZ(eh)L, in English is is usually spelled FREHN-ZEHL or FREHN-ZAHL.

 

[penguinator]

Re: Frenzal Problems

I can equalise with my mouth open. This means I that I am using Frenzel the whole time?

I did another test a while ago and was wondering if it meant I was using frenzel. I blew all the air out of my lungs, and I could continue to equalise until I needed to breath. There was no point where I could no longer equalise.

 

[fogish]

As I understand it that means you are doing Frenzel. There are several threads where people have used this as the bar to gauge whether or not you are able to do Frenzel, at least you have ruled out Valsalva. I have also read about people equalizing with water in their mouth, but I don't know 100% if that means you are doing the Frenzel Maneuver. (I have no idea what else you could be doing other than Frenzel)

 

[DeepThought]

Re: Frenzal Problems

There is a very easy and quick way for determining whether you use Valsalva or Frenzel technique - simply try compensating with pinched nose but open mouth. If you have no problem equalizing, the epiglottis and soft palate are closed and you are indeed using Frenzel. If you are not able to equalize, because the air blows out of your mouth, then you are using Valsalva.

I disagree, I have no problems doing valsalva with an open mouth and see no reason why there should be such a problem.

 

[trux]

Re: Frenzal Problems

I disagree, I have no problems doing valsalva with an open mouth and see no reason why there should be such a problem.

Well, in that case try compensating with empty lungs.

 

[DeepThought]

Oh, were you talking about empty lungs all this time? must've missed that.
Even then there is a question 'how empty is empty?'.
Without reverse packing I can still squeeze a few valsavlas.
I'm pointing this out as for a while when I thought I was doing the Frenzel I realized I was still pushing a little with my diaphragm and opening my eppiglotis at the same time.

 

[trux]

Actually, I did not speak about empty lungs originally. It is not that necessary. Reverse packing might make also Frenzel complicated, if you do not keep sufficient amount of air in the mouth. Better way is compensating while keeping the epiglottis closed - you can do it by closing the throat (epiglottis) while exhaling. Inhale, then create overpressure behind the closure (pushing against the closed throat), so that you can clearly feel immediately when the epiglottis accidentally or involuntarily opens. Then try compensating while keeping the epiglottis closed (and holding the overpressure behind it). If the epiglottis opens, you'll clearly feel the drop in resistance inside your throat and the drop of pressure in your lungs.