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GOOD STA, poor DYN and no lactic acid symptoms

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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BlackTip

Active Member
Jun 22, 2010
9
1
38
I have a PB of 6’ in STA (wet, no packing) though I rarely train for static. I can reach 5’ very easily and almost in any condition. My first onset of contractions is around 4’ and I have never experienced BO or samba in this discipline.

The weird thing is that I can’t safely do more than 80-85m in DYN (with monofin !) unless I end with a samba or even a BO (this is happened a few times hitting 100m).

Now the even weirder thing: I can do 75m even 20 times with 1’ recovery and in no case I experienced the symptoms of lactic acid build up. I never feel my muscles heavy or burning during DYN. According to my training buddies (some of which are in the national freediving team) my monofin technique is fair, though I should further improve on this.

I have tried to swim at different paces (from 15” to 25” for 25m) and styles (continuous kick, two kicks and glide..etc) but with no measurable variations in terms of maximum distance achieved.

During DYN, from the onset of contractions (usually around 60-70m) the urge for breathing rises very strongly compared to STA, it’s a matter of a few meters and after the 75m turn I can do a kick or two before starting to lose clarity of thought and/or the field of vision becoming narrower, eventually ending with a samba.

Finally I could add I have a lean body, and a muscular inclination for sprinting.

I would be grateful if any of you could give me an explanation of the exaggerated difference between my performance in STA compared to DYN.
 
How do you prepare for max DYN attempt? Do you warm up or not? Do you wear mask, swimming cup, goggles or noseclip?
In my opinion the most likely reason is that you have a weak diving reflex. It would explain no lactate build up in your muscles and high rate of oxygen use during DYN. During STA strong diving reflex is far less important. Try to measure your heart rate during max STA attempt to find out if it drops.
 
How do you prepare for max DYN attempt? Do you warm up or not? Do you wear mask, swimming cup, goggles or noseclip?
In my opinion the most likely reason is that you have a weak diving reflex. It would explain no lactate build up in your muscles and high rate of oxygen use during DYN. During STA strong diving reflex is far less important. Try to measure your heart rate during max STA attempt to find out if it drops.

Hi MarcinB and thanks for your help. I also suspected the diving reflex could be a key factor here. I usually warm up, but I also tried no warm up at all before a max attempt and the story was about the same. I mostly prefer and use goggles and nose clip over mask, but wearing mask bring no difference if not for the better clarity of vision which may be of some help (psychologically) during the last meters. I have tried to monitor my HR during dry STA and after an initial 65-70 bpm it slightly rises for the first tens of seconds and then drop to 48-52 after 3 minutes or so.
Do you have any suggestion about what kind of training could be beneficial in my case (walking apnea, aerobic training, etc.)
 
Try to measure your HR during longer STA e.g. 5min to see if it drops further or goes up when you go deeper into the struggle phase.

My suggestion for you is to try to maximize your diving response during a dive. Do a max DYN at the very beginning of your training, without any warm up. Your face should by warm and dry (do not wet it under the shower before entering the pool). Get rid of the swimming cup and goggles (and nose clip as well if possible).

Do you do any training except apnea?
 
I have seen something very similar in a friend, and a weak dive response as mentioned and probably also a strong work response is most likely behind it. He is able to do a 16x50 in a close to WR time by the way. Also DB member Kars might have experimented with things similar to this, you could PM him (most likely he will answer here soon, since he's quite an active and knowledgable DB member very willing to share experiences).

What to do about it? My guess is to do things that in best case can condition a stronger dive repsons, and to avoid things that activate a work response/aerobic mode:
- Start your dives slooooowly...
- No warm-up as mentioned - allthough personally I don't think a facial shower hurts, but avoid dipping your face minutes before the dive.
- Do more exhale-type of training.
- Minimum facial equipment - and thin swimsuit for competition/max-dives.
- Do breathholds in a bowl full of ice-water (Don't drown!!)
- Don't mix aerobic work and diving in a sesion, OR at least keep fx swimming til the end of session.
- Don't go fast on a bicycle going to training etc.

The idea behind the above is to try and separate dive respons from work respons, and to condition the body to a stronger dive response. However there might be a chance that it can desensitize the respons also - I don't know for sure, see here for further discussion

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/conditioning-and-or-desensitizing-dive-respons.96826/

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/dive-respons-vs-work-respons-doing-high-puls-training.97538/
 
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ciao blacktip
looks like your cost of dive is high but still it is a good dyn performance, it can have lots of different reasons.
do you train in a club or how?
 
Try to measure your HR during longer STA e.g. 5min to see if it drops further or goes up when you go deeper into the struggle phase.

My suggestion for you is to try to maximize your diving response during a dive. Do a max DYN at the very beginning of your training, without any warm up. Your face should by warm and dry (do not wet it under the shower before entering the pool). Get rid of the swimming cup and goggles (and nose clip as well if possible).

Do you do any training except apnea?

I understand you and Baiyoke below suggest to go for a one shot with no warm up at all. I will try this approach as soon I can...

Concerning other training, I currently do not practice other sports or physical activity, apart swimming that is part of my apnea training and take a greater fraction of a session at the beginning of the training season (October), while progressively decrease during winter and spring. I am considering to do running that is an old passion of mine, but unfortunately time is not much... Are you thinking of some particular training for my "case"...?
 
I have seen something very similar in a friend, and a weak dive response as mentioned and probably also a strong work response is most likely behind it. He is able to do a 16x50 in a close to WR time by the way. Also DB member Kars might have experimented with things similar to this, you could PM him (most likely he will answer here soon, since he's quite an active and knowledgable DB member very willing to share experiences).

What to do about it? My guess is to do things that in best case can condition a stronger dive repsons, and to avoid things that activate a work response/aerobic mode:
- Start your dives slooooowly...
- No warm-up as mentioned - allthough personally I don't think a facial shower hurts, but avoid dipping your face minutes before the dive.
- Do more exhale-type of training.
- Minimum facial equipment - and thin swimsuit for competition/max-dives.
- Do breathholds in a bowl full of ice-water (Don't drown!!)
- Don't mix aerobic work and diving in a sesion, OR at least keep fx swimming til the end of session.
- Don't go fast on a bicycle going to training etc.

The idea behind the above is to try and separate dive respons from work respons, and to condition the body to a stronger dive response. However there might be a chance that it can desensitize the respons also - I don't know for sure, see here for further discussion

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/conditioning-and-or-desensitizing-dive-respons.96826/

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/dive-respons-vs-work-respons-doing-high-puls-training.97538/

Hi baiyoke and thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience...

I definitively shall try to go for a max attempt with no warm up at all and minimum equipment. As I have an oxymeter (finger probe type, so the readout is delayed compared to what's happening in my brain) do you think there are some useful testing I could do with it to assess my body response to breath holding ?
 
ciao blacktip
looks like your cost of dive is high but still it is a good dyn performance, it can have lots of different reasons.
do you train in a club or how?

Hola fflupo,

It's not that I am aiming to set a new world record... I simply enjoy freediving very much and It's okay to do easily a lot of 75m, but it is also a bit disappointing to put a lot of effort for 100m with the risk of coming out not well. I can live with it... but I really would like to address this limitation. Btw, I train mostly in a club pool (from October to June) and at the sea (May to October).
 
Are you thinking of some particular training for my "case"...?

Diving reflex can be enhanced with training (at least to some extent). I think you should try the following dry exercises. The first one is called "crazy CO2 table". You do 10 breatholds of short duration (you can start with ~1:30 and then adjust until it becomes hard) with only one breath between them. The second one consists of several near maximal empty lung static holds after hyperventilation with 2-3 min rest between them. Do these exercises alternately at least 4 times a week. Continue for at least two months before deciding whether they help or not.
 
Hi Black Tip,

Kars here from the low lands. Where are you from?

I have the same challenge as you do, but slightly less extreme.
I've noticed that depth (pressure) helps to get that muscle mass to into anaerobic mode.

Our problem is (as I currently see it) that our muscles change to late to anaerobic mode.
Why? I suspect because they are too efficient in obtaining O2 from our bloodstream.
The way around is to slow the bloodstream, and to decrease the 'blood flow bandwidth' to the muscles.
Slowing the bloodstream is done by 1: slowing the heart rate, and changing the swimming style. I purposefully turn my dynamics into a static with a tiny bit of slow movement from the legs (far out parts). I know it's not a correct monofin style, but a correct monofin style increases my bloodflow too much. The HR is lowered by lowering breathing at the start, and KEEPING it low during the dive. Any vigorous, sudden or powerful movement raises my HR/blood flow, which I cannot lower during my dive. During the dive I may feel a tiny bit of acid build up after contractions start, and I welcome that and make sure I keep my blood flow low.
I've not come around to lowering the 'blood flow bandwidth' to my muscles yet, but I do know is that any aerobic exercise increases it, and therefore is counter productive. I would consider putting on more muscle mass. The idea is that the distance and resistance from the heart to the exterior muscles mass complicates and becomes longer. So the O2 starving of the muscles, and transition to anaerobic starts earlier. More muscle mass helps also a lot in making swimming feel easier and effortless, since you only need a fraction of your strength capacity to have a reasonable technique and be moving.

I've tested my ideas in DNF and the results to me confirmed the blood flow suspicion is not far off.
What I did was doing a DNF dive, where I started with a low metabolism; waited a moment, and very gently pushed off the wall keeping my bloodflow low. By mentally controlling my HR (mantra: slow, smooth and easy.), and shifting most of the propulsion to my legs (only using the arms very softly). After 50m the dive response came on more, and I allowed myself to use a bit more force, knowing my limbs were shifting to anaerobic. I exited at 106, 5m from my very old pb, but much ahead of what I've done years past oh and with a nice mild feeling of lactic acid in my legs. For this dive I did not train strength or put on weight. It was merely a mental experiment, to see how much a different approach / strategy would make, and if the blood flow model had any merit. My much smarter coach thinks my bloodflow hypothesis makes sense too.

Get and keep the blood flow low.

Love to hear you results.

Kars
 
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Hi Black Tip,

Kars here from the low lands. Where are you from?

I have the same challenge as you do, but slightly less extreme.
I've noticed that depth (pressure) helps to get that muscle mass to into anaerobic mode.

Our problem is (as I currently see it) that our muscles change to late to anaerobic mode.
Why? I suspect because they are too efficient in obtaining O2 from our bloodstream.
The way around is to slow the bloodstream, and to decrease the 'blood flow bandwidth' to the muscles.
Slowing the bloodstream is done by 1: slowing the heart rate, and changing the swimming style. I purposefully turn my dynamics into a static with a tiny bit of slow movement from the legs (far out parts). I know it's not a correct monofin style, but a correct monofin style increases my bloodflow too much. The HR is lowered by lowering breathing at the start, and KEEPING it low during the dive. Any vigorous, sudden or powerful movement raises my HR/blood flow, which I cannot lower during my dive. During the dive I may feel a tiny bit of acid build up after contractions start, and I welcome that and make sure I keep my blood flow low.
I've not come around to lowering the 'blood flow bandwidth' to my muscles yet, but I do know is that any aerobic exercise increases it, and therefore is counter productive. I would consider putting on more muscle mass. The idea is that the distance and resistance from the heart to the exterior muscles mass complicates and becomes longer. So the O2 starving of the muscles, and transition to anaerobic starts earlier. More muscle mass helps also a lot in making swimming feel easier and effortless, since you only need a fraction of your strength capacity to have a reasonable technique and be moving.

I've tested my ideas in DNF and the results to me confirmed the blood flow suspicion is not far off.
What I did was doing a DNF dive, where I started with a low metabolism; waited a moment, and very gently pushed off the wall keeping my bloodflow low. By mentally controlling my HR (mantra: slow, smooth and easy.), and shifting most of the propulsion to my legs (only using the arms very softly). After 50m the dive response came on more, and I allowed myself to use a bit more force, knowing my limbs were shifting to anaerobic. I exited at 106, 5m from my very old pb, but much ahead of what I've done years past oh and with a nice mild feeling of lactic acid in my legs. For this dive I did not train strength or put on weight. It was merely a mental experiment, to see how much a different approach / strategy would make, and if the blood flow model had any merit. My much smarter coach thinks my bloodflow hypothesis makes sense too.

Get and keep the blood flow low.

Love to hear you results.

Kars

Hi Kars,

I'm from Italy... thanks for your help and for sharing your experience.

The model you propose for explaining my problem with DYN makes sense to me, though I understand that, if your diagnosis is right, it should be due to my genetic characteristics which is an aspect probably more difficult to modify by training (so, bad news).

I also find using monofin with correct undulation (which I love to do) lead me to a higher physical stress than trying to simply glide with minimum body motion, but I have not considered working mainly with the legs, a thing I would like to try.

What makes me confused is the inconsistency of the results achieved so far. When I started to train for DYN, I rapidly reached the 100m mark closing the distance in 1' or less (no samba, but very close to it). at that time I had a fast swimming pace with wide undulations strongly accelerating me at every kick. Then I realized that further improvements would have required a totally different approach as I could not maintain that speed for other 25+ meters. So I started again from the 75m, slowing down the swimming pace and closing 75m in 65-70".

By this way the strong contractions I experienced before appear later and are more bearable, but after the 75m turn the limiting factor is a progressive loss of mind clearness, particularly in the 90-100m fraction. So, completely different style and speed but almost same result. The weird thing is that if I wear bi-fins or even a pair of short snorkeling fins I can still manage to close 75m and even a bit more without problem.

I will try your suggestion to do a few instants of static before starting, possibly avoiding strong thrust by hands (in DNF) or legs. It is true, indeed, that when I try to "force-swim" I can almost see the oxygen tank gauge rapidly lowering, but perhaps is only my imagination...

My consolation is that for each limit I have to overcome in freediving, working on it is part of the fun, though it may be frustrating sometimes.
 
Diving reflex can be enhanced with training (at least to some extent). I think you should try the following dry exercises. The first one is called "crazy CO2 table". You do 10 breatholds of short duration (you can start with ~1:30 and then adjust until it becomes hard) with only one breath between them. The second one consists of several near maximal empty lung static holds after hyperventilation with 2-3 min rest between them. Do these exercises alternately at least 4 times a week. Continue for at least two months before deciding whether they help or not.

Interesting tables, MarcinB, never seen something like these before. I will try them. Thanks.
 
Hi BT ,

I believe the inconsistency is for me is due to weather I have and can maintain a low metabolism without disturbing it.
You see every turn has a risk of raising bloodflow. As I've said in regard to CWT, one cannot (re)gain relaxation while swimming, the trick is to keep the starting relaxation, like FRC divers do.

I think genetics has much to do with it, possibly amplified by past sports/lifestyles. But still I think adding mass is helpful, especially if you're lean and thin. Also dynamic record setting athletes all have plenty of muscle mass put on for the event. Look at the videos of Alexey's 250m, or Goran's 283m.
On the other hand freediving and my muscle ability was a very pleasant asset when climbing the Mont Blanc last year; no enhanced urge to breath and no lactic acid build up ;)

I have another cool thing to try and positively freak you out:

Empty lung dynamic no fins..

Be on the ledge on the deep end of the pool(-3,80m in my pool), and relax, focus, and lower metabolism.
When ready, exhale everything and equalise and sink feet first to the bottom.
Relax and wait for a couple of contractions, then start to swim.
Swim relaxed, not applying much force.
At 25m the dive is very tough / toughest, but your mind is crystal clear and you feel there is more in the tank.
Past 25m Now you're start to get used to this level of CO2 and contractions, and consequently they feel easier.
The 50m comes as a funny pleasant surprise, and at this turn you may start to wonder how much you can swim on an empty lung, because your mind is so clear and it's feeling too easy...
At 65m I chickened out, because I felt I was treading too far into the unknown, way past my expectations!
On the surface the first air had my blood shifting back to my limbs... a very delicious feeling.

The blood shifting also works doing longer exhale dives to the deep end.

The thing I gather is that on an exhale, after the contractions started, I could do 65m DNF. So theoretically I could add that to the moment of my full in hale DNF contractions, 40m, and presto a 105m dive; like the one in my previous post.

Needless to say that a close buddy is needed for safety reasons.

I love to hear what you'll discover works for you and people with genetics like us.
My pb's static (7'), 16x50 (12'41"), and CWT (65m). I suck at DNF (111m) and DYN (150m).
 
Hi BT ,

I believe the inconsistency is for me is due to weather I have and can maintain a low metabolism without disturbing it.
You see every turn has a risk of raising bloodflow. As I've said in regard to CWT, one cannot (re)gain relaxation while swimming, the trick is to keep the starting relaxation, like FRC divers do.

I think genetics has much to do with it, possibly amplified by past sports/lifestyles. But still I think adding mass is helpful, especially if you're lean and thin. Also dynamic record setting athletes all have plenty of muscle mass put on for the event. Look at the videos of Alexey's 250m, or Goran's 283m.
On the other hand freediving and my muscle ability was a very pleasant asset when climbing the Mont Blanc last year; no enhanced urge to breath and no lactic acid build up ;)

I have another cool thing to try and positively freak you out:

Empty lung dynamic no fins..

Be on the ledge on the deep end of the pool(-3,80m in my pool), and relax, focus, and lower metabolism.
When ready, exhale everything and equalise and sink feet first to the bottom.
Relax and wait for a couple of contractions, then start to swim.
Swim relaxed, not applying much force.
At 25m the dive is very tough / toughest, but your mind is crystal clear and you feel there is more in the tank.
Past 25m Now you're start to get used to this level of CO2 and contractions, and consequently they feel easier.
The 50m comes as a funny pleasant surprise, and at this turn you may start to wonder how much you can swim on an empty lung, because your mind is so clear and it's feeling too easy...
At 65m I chickened out, because I felt I was treading too far into the unknown, way past my expectations!
On the surface the first air had my blood shifting back to my limbs... a very delicious feeling.

The blood shifting also works doing longer exhale dives to the deep end.

The thing I gather is that on an exhale, after the contractions started, I could do 65m DNF. So theoretically I could add that to the moment of my full in hale DNF contractions, 40m, and presto a 105m dive; like the one in my previous post.

Needless to say that a close buddy is needed for safety reasons.

I love to hear what you'll discover works for you and people with genetics like us.
My pb's static (7'), 16x50 (12'41"), and CWT (65m). I suck at DNF (111m) and DYN (150m).

Hi Kars,

empty lungs dynamics seems interesting indeed. I have tried empty lungs or passive exhale dynamis before, but only for short distances. The feelings were completely different from the usual ones experienced with full lungs, the comfort zone was shorter, but I have to admit that the contractions were surprisingly (for me) less intense and the mind clearness was also fine. I really want to try this technique on a longer distance like 50m or so and I will be glad to report the findings.

Apart from increasing the muscle mass, is there any kind of dry training that could be beneficial for anticipating the dive reflex ?

Do you suggest starting for a max attempt without warming up like MarcinB and baiyoke did also?
 
I don't know about dry training that would help our condition, apart from the usual stuff and building mass. How ever I do think it's highly beneficial to be able to snap into dive mode within 1 or a few metabolism slowing breaths. This ability would benefit any freediver off cause, but I think it's still under appreciated by most beginners and experienced divers, who all need long 'warm-ups' and extensive uninterrupted preparations to be and feel ready.
My coach did play a few games with me like when I was warming up my muscles and stretching saying: "official top in 3 minutes", and I still had lube and put on my suit!
For the empty lung dive experiments I do recommend taking your normal needed time, because changing too many variables is a bad idea for safety, measurement and understanding. But for your normal O2 static, sure why not have your coach/buddy have you give a very short time and you'll just see how fast you can switch off and see what the differences are with a normal preparation. My experience when I stated doing this at my 5'45" pb level was that my no warm up pb was just 30" less, which later on chanced into less then 15-30". This discovery was very comforting, because at competitions distractions etc did not disturb my confidence much less.
For max dynamic? sure Yes give it a go, but surely include lowering metabolism, focus and relaxation before you dive. And when you start, do so in a way that KEEPS those metabolism, circulation down. Also stop caring about distance, time, etc. Only be concerned with keeping circulation low while relaxing and gently swimming. It speaks for itself that a very good buoyancy is needed. When you arrive at the pools end by surprise, then you know you did a great mental dive job, and you haven been/are likely to be in the flow-state of mind, which to me is the free part of freediving.

For your long empty dive, be sure NOT to hyperventilate, this way your contractions will start earlier, and build up more gradual. Hyperventilation INCREASES metabolism, O2 use and CO2 production. - But you probably already know this. Otherwise try the same strategy as described above. In addition, when you venture into unknown territory, you can during the glide part check/ask yourself ' can I do 1 more nice stroke?', this helps to keep sight on your O2 levels and exit in time. Swim along a wall, and a bit shallow when you're in the unknown. Hook breath upon surfacing, and enjoy that rush of blood shifting back to your limbs!

I recogn not the most structured post, but I think it's fairly complete none the less.
Looking forward to hearing of your experience!

Kars
 
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I agree that the problem is late and weak onset of dive reflex.

Karl's posts contain a huge amount of information, all of it good and very relevant. You can add to that some dry full exhale static practice(be careful, you can squeeze yourself). They will be short, but are great practice to initiate DR. You will be able to feel the blood return after resuming breathing. Another way is a classic FRC dynamic exercise. No hyperventilation, minimal ventilation breathup, maybe one purge breathe, FRC inflation (I use half a lung full) then static till the first contraction. Then start swimming, very relaxed and slow. Keep going(with a spotter). This is not intended to increase you dynamic directly, but it will teach your body faster DR and teach you the relaxed approach that will improve your dynamic.
 
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Thank you Connor for adding more safety concerns. Yes doing exhale dives can put to much stress on your body, and cause dangerous injuries.
So here some additional tips avoiding those.
Like Connor suggest, go with more air then 'full exhale'. Yes in freediving gradualism is the best way forward :)
Warm up and mildly stretch your muscles before stretching them by doing exhale dives.
Keep your body warm by using a suit.
Only use smooth and soft movements when you're swimming on an exhale.
Be hydrated and rested.
Have an experience freediving safety close by.
If you're new to exhales, practice that first shallow, then to deeper exhales, then to greater depths, take many small steps, and only add when you're comfortable with previous one. Upon being comfortable at the deep end given a certain amount of air, be it FRC or deeper exhales, you can add the variable of swimming. It's about building it up, and only then expanding it.
Like Connor said the exercise is not about intermediately increasing dynamic, but about teaching a faster, better dive response. Diving exhale, FRC or more, will give you that positive feedback of a very noticeable dive response and bloodshift, knowledge that makes finding it easier in full inhale dives too. In a word it creates a contrasty level of feedback so it's easier to see and learn.

Thanks Connor,

Kars
 
Thanks cdavis and Kars, I really appreciate your suggestions and also the care in preventing any harm during the practice of FRC or exhale dives.

You all posted a big amount of interesting info that needs to be metabolized in small steps, so I am going to first work on my pre-dive relaxation and mind-state that I feel are two aspects on which I need to improve. I can relax myself pretty well in STA, but I often struggle when the muscles come in play.
Then I will work on recognizing the feelings related to the kicking in of dive reflex, working as you suggest to anticipating it.

I have idea that all this will not be easy..., but it seems an intriguing journey, regardless of where it will bring me...

Thanks again !
 
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How do you prepare for max DYN attempt? Do you warm up or not? Do you wear mask, swimming cup, goggles or noseclip?
In my opinion the most likely reason is that you have a weak diving reflex. It would explain no lactate build up in your muscles and high rate of oxygen use during DYN. During STA strong diving reflex is far less important. Try to measure your heart rate during max STA attempt to find out if it drops.

Hello, Marcin B..why do you say that Diving Reflex is far less important in Static disciplinethan in Dynamic .? I think i hear that for the first time...
 
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