Goose bumps?

[m2b]

I've been wrapping up another unexpected summer of freediving. I've changed a few things around and dropped some equipment in the process. Today I decided to try out, while it was still a little warm, the crazy idea of going without the wetsuit. Granted, I didn't actually do any dives at all but just got in the water, temp at 61 F and air temps in the low 50s F. Strangely both seemed about the same temperature.

I did notice one thing that I'm wondering about for both near and distant future reference. The "tingling" sensation you get caused by the cold water, how long does that feeling last or is it there as long as you are in the water. It seemed like I had "raised goose bumps" on my legs that were "tingling", and they didn't go away in the 4-5 minutes I spent in the water. The upper body didn't seem like it produce the same kind of effect. I'm not sure why unless hair on the legs had something to do with it. I don't have much hair on my stomach or chest.

I didn't stay in the water long as I knew the air temp was even colder and the cloudy/drizzly skies weren't going to help matters either. I played it safe and got out the water before I started shivering. So far I've hardly stayed in the water long enough to start shivering, I just haven't been willing to take the unnecessary risk.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[wet]

Hi Ryan

goose bumps result from the tiny pili muscles attached to each hair, that when contracted the hair raises vertically from the skin and causes a little bump. In our hairy/furry mammalian cousins, this "raises the hackles" both for thermoinsulation and fear/dominance situations.

Fur seals have fur but their pili muscles are gone, because hair-raising doesn't do any good in the water, it doesn't help stay warm, that's why they have blubber, the fur keeps them warm ashore and on ice packs.

True seals have lost both the pili muscles and the fur coat.

Humans lost most of the fur coat, the remainder is hydrodynamic, filling the voids of the body during diving. Our pili muscles still work, but add very little warmth when activated.

Water transfers heat much faster than air, depending on the speed of the currents. Wet skin obviously cools lots faster in fast wind than when in still water.

Shivering is partly affected by metabolism, so energy level is probably significant, not sure which one, probably blood sugar/glycogen. I haven't figured out shivering, obviously a self-warming thermostat system, but how does it fit in water? Do fish or dolphins shiver? Do other animals shiver?

When I swam up in Crescent City beach Calif. in 51 degrees pacific water, I really couldn't think about anything except getting in and getting out asap.
I'd wanted to try experimenting, but just couldn't get relaxed enough. Wait til warm waters.

 

[DeepThought]

I get goose pumps in 25c water with no suit quite fast. I will also shiver unless I will relax myself consciously. I know some people can raise goose pumps on their limbs just by will.
I think that in general those are automatic responses that can be trained to overcome, as they are not very beneficial in water.

Might be a little relevant - I think I remember from some documentary about hypothermia in water that shivering and being passive with all your limbs close to your core isn't gonna keep you warm as long as if you're actively moving, I'm not sure if it's valid to all water temperatures though.
I think I also remember from the same program that in water blubber is a much more efficient insulator than fur (maybe twice as much) and cloths.
I also think I remember (maybe?) Eric Fattah wrote here that shivering metabolism is also lipolytic to some percentage.

 

[m2b]

Okay, what I'm wondering though, do they have the tendency to go away after a few/several minutes being in the water or will they stick around until you remove yourself from the environment that created them in the first place? I know that they do have a different feeling to them that is a little unnerving. Trying to concentrate on breathing up is rather difficult to say the least when your skin has this strange "tingling" sensation.

I used to get goose bumps from a particular song. It could be 25-30C and I would still get bumps anytime I heard the song. It doesn't happen anymore but it always used to happen all the time.

Ryan

 

[DeepThought]

My skin gets kinda numb after 10mins~ no suit in 25c water (I'm a warm water diver), goos pumps on stay till I get out. I don't have much experience with no suit in cold water.

 

[Halmyr]

Might be a little relevant - I think I remember from some documentary about hypothermia in water that shivering and being passive with all your limbs close to your core isn't gonna keep you warm as long as if you're actively moving, I'm not sure if it's valid to all water temperatures though.

The thing with moving around is that your also wasting a lot of energy on actualy walking, and the energy lost in the water is even worst. You cool down 25-30 times faster then on land, so hyporthemia can be acquired withing minutes of being submerge in cold water.

Unless you know you can be rescue for sure, its better to conserve your energy and conserve your heat as much as you can. aka, get out of the water as fast as you can.

I've personaly been in 10c, 10 seconds submerge was enough to feel the vain in my forehead to freeze up. Luckly there was a hot tub right next to itroflmade it felt so much warmer then it actualy was.

It also takes me a while to start shivering in water 25c because I work in such an enviroment for hours.

 

[naiad]

Shivering is partly affected by metabolism, so energy level is probably significant, not sure which one, probably blood sugar/glycogen. I haven't figured out shivering, obviously a self-warming thermostat system, but how does it fit in water? Do fish or dolphins shiver? Do other animals shiver?

Most warm-blooded land animals shiver. Penguins shiver on land, I'm not sure about in the water. Some insects such as bees and moths use something similar to raise their body temperature for flight.

I'm not sure about fish. Most of them don't but a few, particularly Mollies (Poecilia) do a 'shimmying' movement, moving the head and tail from side to side, like swimming on the spot. They do this when the temperature is too low or the water chemistry is wrong, or they are ill for some reason. They do need a higher temperature than most tropical fish, 26-30c, so maybe it has something to do with that.

Shivering is an inefficient way of generating heat for a warm-blooded animal, and much more so for a fish, which has a low metabolic rate and no insulation.

 

[m2b]

It also takes me a while to start shivering in water 25c because I work in such an enviroment for hours.

I agree with you Halmyr. Water that warm you only need a swim suit to stay warm. Granted no matter the water temperature you can always stay warmer by keeping the body moving, err generating its own heat. I used to swim competitively as a kid and I never had trouble swimming in 15-16 C degree water. Admittedly, I had to get in first which took me forever, call it being a chicken. Once I was in and swimming I could always stay warm as long as I stayed moving. The difference is trying to stay moving and breathe up at the same time.

I did try out both the eating before diving, get the digestive system generating heat, and the profuse sweating concept just a little bit ago. I knew the weather wasn't the greatest but considering what it will be like over the weekend it was fabulous. Drizzle and around 11 C outside with the water temp still holding around 17 C where I was diving. I did put on the full gear expecting the water to actually be a little colder than that(the smaller body of water should cool off faster than a bigger body of water...it didn't happen like that though). It did seem like the cold wasn't as noticeable as early as usual, other than when I first dropped my head/upper body underwater. It seemed like "hyperventilating" helped to get over the initial shock of the cold water as I was swimming out to deeper waters.

The wetsuit I dive with has no sleeves whatsoever, from the shoulders on down. I do wear a thermal top and fleece to help compensate for the lack of sleeves. Today it helped me to notice one thing. The less arm movement you make while swimming out/back in, the warmer you'll stay. I think I have also noticed the same effect since I shifted down a notch to no fin diving. Today it seemed like I was noticing that water didn't want to penetrate the suit as much as it always had in the past while I was diving with a, now broken, monofin. Optimizing your swim stroke to allow the cold water to seep in and then start to warm up may also help to keep you warmer. If you keep "refreshing" the cold water all the time it will make you cold quicker.

Now if I could just figure out the way to stay moving and be able to get a decent breathe up/keep the heart rate down at the same time...LOL!!!

Ryan

 

[Halmyr]

I agree with you Halmyr. Water that warm you only need a swim suit to stay warm. Granted no matter the water temperature you can always stay warmer by keeping the body moving, err generating its own heat. I used to swim competitively as a kid and I never had trouble swimming in 15-16 C degree water. Admittedly, I had to get in first which took me forever, call it being a chicken. Once I was in and swimming I could always stay warm as long as I stayed moving. The difference is trying to stay moving and breathe up at the same time.

Yep, you can stay in 15-16c water much longer with a wet/dry suit, or if your swimming competitively. But try imagining, just a casual swim with a simple bathing, you will last a lot less longer. There other factor that can come in to make you last longer orshorter in cold water.

What I'm guessing is that when you swam without you arm, you keep them close to the side of your body. That keeps you warmer because the three biggest spot you lose heat from your body are your crotch area, your armpits and your head.

Even I at work started wearing a good old tuque to keep my self warm once I'm out.

 

[m2b]

Actually no, Halmyr, I keep my hands out in front of me as I swim out. I just don't move them around as if I were doing the breaststroke. I noticed that when I did try to stroke with one arm of the upper body(the other arm was out front holding onto the dive line) that I was feeling the cold water "replenishing itself". Granted I don't use the arms after I initially get into the head down position, even though I am diving no fin. I just do the breaststroke kick with the legs and leave both arm pointing at the bottom. I may be wrong but this does seem to optimize the stroke, err make it more efficent and use less energy. I may be wrong on this idea but it does seem to work for me. I am only diving down 8-9 meters at the present time, trying to stay in the warmer water at the surface.

Amazing the difference one meter can make in terms of water temperature. The first dive today was in 7.5 meter deep water. Upon surfacing, before my head even broke the surface I was realizing that I hadn't seen any kind of drop in the water temperature down at the bottom. I moved out a little further between dives and was in 8-8.5 meter deep water. On the second dive I did notice the drop in temperature from 17.5-12.5 C. Incredible the difference one meter can make. Admittedly, from what I've been told around here thermocline is generally around 7-8 C so I wasn't at thermocline yet but the temperature drop does seem like it has remained at a constant level over the past several weeks. Today was the first time I have really noticed the depth at which the temperature dropped. Heck, maybe I am starting to get used to being underwater once again, LOL!!!

Next time I'm out I'll have to try the idea of keeping the arms at the side while on the swim out and see if it makes any difference or not. I agree it should make a difference. It might make swimming out a little harder as well.

Ryan

 

[naiad]

Now if I could just figure out the way to stay moving and be able to get a decent breathe up/keep the heart rate down at the same time...LOL!!!

That is exactly my problem. If I stop moving, I get cold, and if I move, I get out of breath. :head
If I eat before diving in cool water, I feel sick, so the only solution is not to eat, but that can't be helping with the cold issue.
The only solution that I can think of is to dive in 30c water! rofl

 

[m2b]

I'm hoping this weekend to try out the idea of drinking warm/hot water before getting into the water and see how that works while doing everything else I've already been doing. Yesterday did seem quite a bit better than normal. I stayed warmer/comfortable longer than normal even though it was crappy weather and colder water. I would spend quite a bit more time in the water if it wasn't for one problem I know that I have that makes "hard" shivering undesirable. I have stayed in the water in the past until I was shivering big time and would love to do it again but I know I don't really dare. Sometime I'll get the money saved up to take care of the problem and than I'll go have some cold shivering fun but until then I watch/listen to myself and get out of the water early.

I just thought about it, I might have to try the idea of "hard" swimming between dives and see what happens. I'm curious how long it would take to warm back up, if I could warm back up. Right now I'm getting two or three dives before getting out. If I could still get the two dives than swim for a while and warm back up enough to get another two dives, than more swimming, etc. I would have to say that it's worth it. Admittedly I do have this stinking sore arm that makes freestyle swimming a little painful but I might be able to find a way to work around it.

Ryan

 

[Halmyr]

Come to Canada and do some Polar bear diving rofl

that should get you use to cold water