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Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Dec 9, 2023
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Hello everyone. I have hit the hardest of CO2 plateaus. Every session has now turned into pure suffering. SOS.

I don't dive, I sing. STA has really given me the necessary constitution to perform several pieces in a row without the need to catch my breath. Still, I can only dream of the max holds logged on here (I've seen fellows complain about their "pathetic 5-minute max").

HOLD: 2:10 mins, 1:15 min first rest, 10-second rest decrements, 8 holds in total.

COONTRACTIONS: you bet. They hit like a full-blown ab workout at around 1:10. I can control them or let them be, both will still result in an equally painful hold. After training, I usually have a mild burning sensation in my lungs and feel quite tired. Can't progress farther, either.

My modest max is about 2:25.

Looking for table enjoyers and/or true diving likers who could possibly drop some wisdom on how to break this barrier.

Maybe you have dropped CO2 tables in favor of some other training? Or maybe you corrected your table? How did you break a plateau like this?

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thank you.
 
Sounds to me like you should stop doing them and find something else instead!

I've written here before how important it can be to remain comfortable for the majority of time spent breathhold training.

..."pure suffering", "hit like a full-blown ab workout", "painful hold", "burning sensation", etc., etc...
It seems to me that what you're actually doing is training your mind & body to link such things with holding your breath. -And if your mind & body expect such a trial during breathholds then you're making it so much harder to access one of the most vital components of breathholds: relaxation.

I'll quote something else that I've said before:
Freediving is so different from other sports (where you can typically kinda use the 'adrenaline rush' that comes from pushing through a degree of 'pain' to get that 'gain'). Instead, during apnea it's so important to stay relaxed to reduce oxygen use. This means training methods that regularly lead to fairly significant extended discomfort can very often negatively impact your ability to stay relaxed as you continue training into the future.

OK, so that's the negative side of training, but you still want to increase your breathhold time, meaning you'd like to find some kind of training that can actually help with this. -So what else can you do instead?

Well, TBH, I can't claim to be able to give a specific answer to that for you - I think it's something you have to largely work out by experimenting for yourself. However I can suggest some principles that might help you find a way through:
  1. Don't push training to the point of 'suffering', and don't set specific time goals. -As above, that's not helpful in the long-run, so stop very soon after you start to feel uncomfortable (after first contraction, maybe?) - Read through the first post I linked above for further thoughts on this.
  2. Try to make such a significant change to the training that it can 'break' the association with pain/suffering. -Maybe do more (semi-?)dynamic type breathholds, rather than static, so it's significantly different? (Maybe also even take a break for a while before restarting with different training?)
  3. Look for some way to make whatever training you do more enjoyable. -Maybe find some kind of 'games' to incorporate into it? Anything to occupy your mind during breathhold so it's not registering it simply as "pure suffering"! (One idea could be to incorporate singing into it in some way? -since that's your primary objective, and hopefully it's something you enjoy...)
  4. Could be also worth noting that it appears there isn't a clear 'best training method', but it seems like almost anything that regularly triggers the dive reflex can help to improve & strengthen it over time. (I've written more about that here.)
Here are a couple of other final thoughts:
  1. Try spending some time training relaxation. -I wouldn't necessarily advocate getting fully into yoga in a big way, but there are certain aspects of it that can improve relaxation. (Also, freedivers find some of the breathing exercises are helpful for breath-control, and I suspect the same could be true for singers - and they're not specifically to do with holding your breath, so you won't have those 'painful associations'...)
  2. Consider stretching exercises that might help increase lung capacity. -Again, I've mentioned this here before, and there are plenty of resources out there about such things (youtube vids by freedivers, etc.)
Anyway, that's enough from me - hopefully there's something helpful in there somewhere!
 
I forgot to also mention that regular swimming might be a good way to increase breath-control and would probably benefit singing. (Of course, I've no idea if you already do that, or if it's something you would actually enjoy, or maybe if there could be some reason you can't do that...)

Finally, what about even signing up for a 'try/beginner freediving' course? -a good instructor should be able to help you with breathhold techniques if you explain what you've been going through - and you might even decide you want to do it more!
 
How often are you practicing? I’ve found that newbies over train. Over training leads to situation like yours. I’m wondering if that’s the problem. It’s also good to use O2 tables as well, not just CO2.

Not sure if tables will assist with singing. Maybe techniques for lung expansion maybe a better route. Are you singing with a coach? Because they know what you’ll need that’s affective.
 
Hello everyone. I have hit the hardest of CO2 plateaus. Every session has now turned into pure suffering. SOS.

I don't dive, I sing. STA has really given me the necessary constitution to perform several pieces in a row without the need to catch my breath. Still, I can only dream of the max holds logged on here (I've seen fellows complain about their "pathetic 5-minute max").

HOLD: 2:10 mins, 1:15 min first rest, 10-second rest decrements, 8 holds in total.

COONTRACTIONS: you bet. They hit like a full-blown ab workout at around 1:10. I can control them or let them be, both will still result in an equally painful hold. After training, I usually have a mild burning sensation in my lungs and feel quite tired. Can't progress farther, either.

My modest max is about 2:25.

Looking for table enjoyers and/or true diving likers who could possibly drop some wisdom on how to break this barrier.

Maybe you have dropped CO2 tables in favor of some other training? Or maybe you corrected your table? How did you break a plateau like this?

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thank you.
I personally enjoy apnea tables, but perhaps that's only because I know I'm not a very good diver (in particular in the pool, which is all I have access to most of the time) and so my goals are perhaps quite modest compared to others doing tables. To be honest I find them quite relaxing - I don't often get 40 minutes to myself essentially doing nothing!

Improving a consistent breath-hold - for me at least - requires so much more than just tables, though. There's a significant mental/relaxation component to it, for example, as well as, e.g., base training, discipline-specific training, and so on. I'm not a serious diver, and so I personally only try to improve my breath-hold before I go somewhere where I can dive to depth, mostly just to make the most of the opportunity, and in my case it does involve an element of suffering - I hit my blood chemistry hard for a week or so before I go. I know that there are very good divers (previous world record holders) who did this before a competition too.

The trick with suffering is understanding how far you can push yourself before the stress leads to negative connections between the exercise and how it feels at the time. I know some people who will hold until their nth contraction - and contractions vary enormously between individuals. I personally get them very early, but they don't really cause me much stress (perhaps because I get them so early, and am therefore perhaps more acclimated to them than others who require a longer dive/hold to experience them). Ultimately if you view them as a negative thing (and let's be honest, they generally are when it comes to depth diving) then they will feel negative, and in freediving this is likely to be a vicious cycle: negative thoughts lead to stress, which leads to greater oxygen consumption, which leads to shorter performances, which lead to performance anxiety, which leads to stress, and so on.

Note that stress is not inherently bad. If you're interested in how it can be both helpful and harmful, look up the difference between eustress and distress.

Another example of how negative thoughts can affect you out of proportion to how serious they may seem is cold water immersion: I think of the cold water embracing me, and it really helps. It would still harm me with sufficient exposure - that hasn't changed - but there is much less potential for panic (this was confirmed in a study a few years ago, as it happens).

There are other sports where you can deal with the risk of stress by segregation, i.e., you do an exercise hard, and it hurts but ultimately makes you stronger/fitter/faster/whatever, but you don't actually do that exercise in the sport, so the negativity is somewhat moot. For example, press-ups and sit-ups are great for boxing, even though you don't ever perform them in a fight. To some extent you can do this for freediving - barbell squats for no-fins, for example - but contractions are experienced in every freediving discipline, so it is unavoidable if they become associated with stress.

But my real reason for responding to your post is the bit about a burning sensation in your lungs after you have finished your tables. To be honest, that worries me - I've never felt that, none of those I have coached have ever mentioned that to me, and I've never read about that happening. I'm not saying it's necessarily bad - I'm no doctor - but it isn't something I'd expect.

Just out of interest, why are you training to increase your breath-hold? Your second paragraph suggests you've already achieved your aim. I also know that there are breath exercises and diaphragmatic exercises which are specific to singing - are you aware of these?

Also, let's be clear: there's nothing pathetic about a five-minute maximum - or any maximum, for that matter (how is it ever helpful to tell someone in training that they're pathetic?!). I've been involved in a few sports, and I've never found another where the difference between casual participants and the top of the sport is so extreme. I mentioned this in a presentation I gave on freediving a few years ago, and the difference between my maximum depth and the world record at the time that, as a proportion, using Usain Bolt's 100m world record as a yardstick, was equivalent to walking it slowly. Last time I looked, you didn't have to be able to hold for five minutes to become an AIDA freediving instructor, but you did have to be able to swim 100m underwater and dive to 40m.

There is a form of CO2 table that I think might suit your needs quite well, but I don't feel comfortable sharing it with you given that you experience pain in your lungs following your training. I agree with another poster that you should seek some formal instruction. If you choose not to do so and to continue anyway, please at least try not to push things to the point that they hurt. Don't do any more than about 60% or so of your maximum during CO2 tables - so a maximum of say 1'30", based upon what you wrote - and if that still leads to pain in your lungs, either stop or dial it back even more (shorter time and fewer holds), and consider speaking to a doctor.

If you have any specific questions, please feel free to reply, or send me a private message if it's anything too personal to share on here. Best of luck.
 
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