heavy vs medium aerobic training

[SpearoPimp]

ok my question is how benificial is heavy aerobic training for the type of freediving I do which is spearfishing so many repeated dives througout the day. b/c the type of training I do i would describe as medium aerobic intensity but i hold my breath during alot of it. I swim dynamics w/ minifins back and forth (not a "maxing out distance") but good enough to work it. with about 4 or 5 breaths inbetween each lap.
my heartrate doesn't get as fast as it would if I was running or swimming regular laps non stop but it definitly gets higher. so my question is should I do more HEAVY aerobic type training or a certain mix of the two. what would be most benificial to help w/ the type of freediving I want to do. My goals include having longer diving times and diving deeper of course.

 

[efattah]

To increase your 'one-dive-max,' you would need to do an apnea exercise to 100% effort (to your limit), which requires a helper to watch you of course.

To decrease your recovery time between dives, hard aerobic exercise for extended periods of time would work.

Currently I do not know of any method which will accomplish both. It seems they are mutually exclusive.

The reason is this: to achieve a long single dive, your muscles need to have a low density of capillaries, to prevent oxygen delivery to the muscles (like in seals). This adaptation occurs during apnea exercise.

To achieve short recovery times between dives requires lots of capillaries to the muscles to pump blood into the muscle (thus cleaning out the waste products and CO2 + lactic acid). This adaptation can be developed through aerobic training.

Summary:
- Low muscle capillary density = long single dive, long recovery time
- High muscle capillary density = short single dive, fast recovery time
- Medium muscle capillary density = medium single dive, medium recovery time

 

[Michael]

Eric,

I have noticed that when I am in good cardio condition, I recover quicker from the hard kick down to 25m, and when I start falling at around 30m, I feel more relaxed and comfortable. Whereas, when I am in poor cardio condition, that first 25m jacks up my heartrate, and I feel like the CO2 builds up quicker.

Doesn't it make sense that the better cardio conditioning a diver has, the quicker he will recover from the first initial kick phase of the descent?

 

[cdavis]

Interesting question. For the midrange of depth, skill and condltioning, where many of us operate, I suspect that the better aerobic condition a diver is in, the faster recovery, deeper, and longer he will be able to stay down. What seems best for me is a combination of dive simulation in the pool and hard aerobics, also in the pool. The simulations might go like this, for a 150 ft dive, swim 25 yards then hang 30 seconds then swim 50 yards. For spearing practice, swim 25, hang 40-60 seconds , swim 25. Adapt the idea to your style of diving. Doing some statics would probably be a good idea. I guess this is Eric's "medium" alternative. This seems to work both ends of the problem and works for me.

Connor

 

[naiad]

To increase your 'one-dive-max,' you would need to do an apnea exercise to 100% effort (to your limit), which requires a helper to watch you of course.

To decrease your recovery time between dives, hard aerobic exercise for extended periods of time would work.

Currently I do not know of any method which will accomplish both. It seems they are mutually exclusive.

The reason is this: to achieve a long single dive, your muscles need to have a low density of capillaries, to prevent oxygen delivery to the muscles (like in seals). This adaptation occurs during apnea exercise.

To achieve short recovery times between dives requires lots of capillaries to the muscles to pump blood into the muscle (thus cleaning out the waste products and CO2 + lactic acid). This adaptation can be developed through aerobic training.

Summary:
- Low muscle capillary density = long single dive, long recovery time
- High muscle capillary density = short single dive, fast recovery time
- Medium muscle capillary density = medium single dive, medium recovery time

How does this affect static apnea, where the muscles are not being used?

Lucia

 

[Johan Andersson]

The reason is this: to achieve a long single dive, your muscles need to have a low density of capillaries, to prevent oxygen delivery to the muscles (like in seals). This adaptation occurs during apnea exercise.

Eric, could you please provide a reference for this? If so, I would be very grateful. This is an area I´m very interested in. Are there really studies showing e.g. the capillary density in skeletal muscles after apnea training?

Johan Andersson
Lund, Sweden

 

[Murat]

as far as i know hard aerobic training (weight lifting with hard instensity) will help to drop your rested heart beat frequency (i have normal heart beat rate lower than 60 at age 22, i guess this is something to do with bodybuilding) but will also put some mucle mass which will increase oxygen consumtion. Genreally freediver suggest light weight with many and fast repetiton to not to add to much muscle mass.

Some suggest aerobic traning mixed with anerobic traning while doing cardio, like running etc but don't know much about weight lifting some says anerobic is better some says areobic mixed with anerobic is good etc..

 

[SpearoPimp]

To increase your 'one-dive-max,' you would need to do an apnea exercise to 100% effort (to your limit), which requires a helper to watch you of course.


The reason is this: to achieve a long single dive, your muscles need to have a low density of capillaries, to prevent oxygen delivery to the muscles (like in seals). This adaptation occurs during apnea exercise.

this brings up another question i've thought of before. Are there any negative effect of hypreventelation besides doing it in water and possible blacking out in the water. Like if you're doing dry apneas and u are supposed to go to 100% does this imply that it is good to hold as long as you really can b/c with hypreventelation you might be able to hold a little longer on average b/c u end up pushing that 100% limit more. are there any dangers in hyperventalation besides the drowning in water thing. Can it cause any negative effects on your physical? is it even worth doing or you won't benefit from this practice?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

ai have normal heart beat rate lower than 60 at age 22, i guess this is something to do with bodybuilding

I'm not a freediver. I am just a spearfisherman who does it freediving. So I offer this just as another bit of information, and I make no claim to knowing anything about your death defying sport. I am a chicken who comes up long before he feels any distress, and would consider a chest contraction to be a near death experience.

I have a resting heart rate of 38 at age 66. I had a resting rate in the low 70s in my early 20s. I attribute the change to years of running and cycling starting in my late 30s. I was lifting weights before I started the aerobic stuff, and have continued to lift weights in the succeeding years. Therefore, I think the decline in resting rate was due to aerobics rather than lifting.

Of course there is always the possibility that its due to pathology, but I'm perfectly comfortable at 38 bpm.

 

[ADR]

Spearopimp,

Hyperventilation causes vasodilation which in turn means the dive response is weaker or slower to establish itself. That seems like a negative to me! The flip side of this is you will increase venous O2 stores so just which is better probably depends on the person and the "responsivenes" of their dive response

 

[rifmaniac]

To increase your 'one-dive-max,' you would need to do an apnea exercise to 100% effort (to your limit), which requires a helper to watch you of course.

To decrease your recovery time between dives, hard aerobic exercise for extended periods of time would work.

What do you mean by hard, and by extended??

I've read somewhere that muscle metabolism trough effort could be divided in three:
aerobic: heart rate between 40 and 60% of max (220-age)
anaerobic lactic: 60-85%
anaerobic alactic: 85 and 100%

I started with 120bpm(60%) for 2months, 40-60mn per exercice, 4days a week
I'm now doing 20mn of 120bpm then 20' of 140bpm, and introducing sometimes 10-20mn of 150bpm.
I add to this some apnea weight lifting(40'), with the maximum weight I can lift for at least 60".

Do you think 150bpm is hard enough??

 

[Walrus]

Hi Eric
I don't agree with your clear cut definition of what the best method is for increasing your one dive max.

If you look at some of the top freedivers they are doing a lot of cardio training, including Martin, Mandy, Natalia etc. Natalia has made the biggest gains compared to anyone, she does a LOT of cardio. How can you say this isn't working for her ?
There are some very different aproaches and yet they both work. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. With a no cardio and %100 effort apnea aproach it is clear you will achieve the strongest dive reflex. But having said that you are also losing some efficiency in terms of muscle conditioning and oxygen efficiency that you gain from cardio. And vice versa when you do a lot of cardio you impede maximum dive reflex.

This would be more obvious in an event such as dynamic apnea where the dive reflex is a lot less, and specially if you are a fast monofin type person you do really want good cardio fitness. Although I think you probably aren't refering to dynamic in your previous statement though, but for any competitive freedivers there is more then just constant.

To minimise the negative effects of cardio you can cut out all cardio and reduce your apnea training to less attempts at higher efforts, 2-4 weeks prior to a comp or record attempt. Pretty much an old school aproach even Umberto would teach, likewise PFI so nothing new here.
Something else when you look at Natalia's aproach versus no cardio %100 effort is the sheer bulk of training, just how much time can you spend with the other apoach ? Also as far as I'm concerned techique is far more important then physical adaptation. Even people wanting to do the no cardio aproach would have to spend quite some time working on technique. Then you almost need a cardio phase so you have the fitness to work on the technique phase

Something else a wise friend of mine reminded me of that people should remember is lifestyle. For most of us (I hope) there is more to life then just freediving, doing some type of exercise makes most of us feel & look better, reduce stress and help to be healthier.


Cheers,
Wal

 

[pimp]

cool name bro, have fun

 

[pimp]

Spearopimp,

Hyperventilation causes vasodilation which in turn means the dive response is weaker or slower to establish itself. That seems like a negative to me! The flip side of this is you will increase venous O2 stores so just which is better probably depends on the person and the "responsivenes" of their dive response

just stay cool bro